Uncomfortable Echoes: A Conversation With Resident Evil 5 Director Jun Takeuchi


3/2/2009 7:05 PM | 35 Comments | Page 1 of 5

Evan Narcisse
Evan Narcisse
Status: Trapped in a world he never made!
(Contributor: Scott Jones)

There's a sacred dogma in journalism that holds that you're not supposed to insert yourself into a story. Maintain objectivity, the intro classes say. Avoid the "I" pronoun. That's often easier said than done. I ran up against that wall when I first saw the trailer for Resident Evil 5. The destitute, vacant-eyed black people in the trailer looked like they could've been in Haiti, where my parents were born. Even after learning that the game was set in Africa, I worried about whether I'd be able to play a game in which poor African villagers were the avatars of evil. In my own life, personally and professionally, I've dealt with and still deal with the legacy of negative stereotypes that dog people of African descent.

Uncomfortable Echoes: A Conversation with <i>Resident Evil 5</i> Director Jun Takeuchi
Jun Takeuchi
The controversy surrounding the game and its supposed portrayals of African life grew. Over time, I built up a mental block that prevented me from playing the preview builds of RE5 that were sent to me. I finally broke through that barrier two weeks ago, in preparation for an interview with Jun Takeuchi, the creative lead on the RE5 dev team. My experience playing the game brought up some uncomfortable historical echoes, but I went into the interview open-minded. More than anything, I was interested in a conversation, one where I'd be able to get understanding and hopefully grant some.

The interview happened at the Red Rock during DICE Summit 2009. Scott Jones and I went to a hotel suite where Capcom PR honcho Chris Kramer, Takeuchi and his translator were waiting for us. In the sometimes serious and sometimes silly conversation that followed, we talked less about gameplay mechanics or controls and more about the cultural understandings that come into play when creating and receiving a work like Resident Evil 5.

Evan Narcisse: Let me begin, Takeuchi-san, by saying I'm a fan of your work, particularly Lost Planet and Onimusha. I agreed with your talk yesterday when you said that Japanese pop culture would do very well across the world. I think Resident Evil 5 looks amazing, and I like the way that co-op has been implemented. Resident Evil 4 was seen as the highlight of the series so far. What kind of decisions did you make as a creative lead to try and raise the bar?

Uncomfortable Echoes: A Conversation with <i>Resident Evil 5</i> Director Jun Takeuchi
Chris and Sheva look as if they come to Kijuju from another reality.
Jun Takeuchi: Resident Evil 4 was such a well-received game, both with critics and fans all over the world. We felt tremendous pressure when we started making this game to add something new to the Resident Evil series and to put something into the game that would separate it and take it a bit further than Resident Evil 4. Our answer was to use the online capabilities of the current-gen consoles. We felt it was a very smooth process, going from Resident Evil 4 and adding co-op.

Scott Jones: There's a weird discrepancy in the game between the people who star in the game and the people you fight. The people you control both look like they just came from a Bally's fitness center and just finished drinking wheatgrass shots. Then, they're in this place that's barren and the people there are killing goats. It's so raw. You have these people who are so well-groomed and fit and put-together, juxtaposed with enemies who seem like they're living this subsistence kind of life. Talk about that as a design decision.

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Comments

  • GusMastrapa
    GusMastrapa

    3/4/2009 6:28:21 PM

    @JasonMcMaster:

    Granted this is more a problem with games narrative as a whole and not this particular case. Apart from RPGs and other rare exceptions games aren't too concerned with characterization, especially of non pivotal characters.

    Reply »
  • JasonMcMaster

    3/4/2009 6:01:33 PM

    @GusMastrapa:

    Yeah, thinking back, you're right. The people aren't really human, even when they are.

    Reply »
  • GusMastrapa
    GusMastrapa

    3/4/2009 5:42:30 PM

    @JasonMcMaster:

    There's a difference between "humanity" and "non-zombie." A single bit of dialog showing one of the locals as friendly or having an ounce of personality would have done the trick.

    Reply »
  • MSUSteve
    MSUSteve

    3/4/2009 3:47:38 PM

    @RyanKuo: There's something to that Ryan. I mean it's a story about warring internal factions that only want to screw over the citizens of the country and, without spoiling anything, the "solution" to the problem comes from an outsider.

    Reply »
  • JasonMcMaster

    3/4/2009 3:25:32 PM

    @GusMastrapa:

    I dunno, there's a few moments where you see humanity, but they're so few and far between that I can see what you're saying.

    Reply »
  • RyanKuo

    3/4/2009 2:05:58 PM

    @MSUSteve:

    Not to digress but I keep thinking Far Cry 2 has a slight colonialist ring to it. Am I the only one who's a little weirded out by being given this photorealistic Third World to drive around and start fires in, complete with malaria? At this point, the level of detail we can give a digital world really starts to raise questions about what details are needed (let alone why).

    Reply »
  • MSUSteve
    MSUSteve

    3/4/2009 8:23:28 AM

    @GusMastrapa: That's true Gus. I certainly haven't played it. I played the demo and saw that initial trailer, but that's it. So it's entirely possible that the full game presents things differently.

    Reply »
  • GusMastrapa
    GusMastrapa

    3/3/2009 9:42:31 PM

    @MSUSteve:

    The tricky thing is that most of us haven't played the game yet. And the trailers are cut to titillate. There's no time within them to really develop the setting, present characters or add depth beyond the shallow front.

    That said, I have played the first several chapters of the game. And there's no real effort, besides the introduction of Sheva, to really create an image of the locals as anything but "the other" from the outset.

    Reply »
  • MSUSteve
    MSUSteve

    3/3/2009 9:24:44 PM

    For the post below I meant to type "I'm really trying to drill down to the heart of this issue because I also feel weird when I see RE5's portrayal of black people..." not "fee]". I'm not going for some new version of leet speak. :-p

    Reply »
  • MSUSteve
    MSUSteve

    3/3/2009 9:21:16 PM

    @EvanNarcisse: I appreciate the dialog Evan. I'm certainly not trying to say anyone is being over sensitive and I hope you didn't take my remarks that way. I'm really trying to drill down to the heart of this issue because I also fee] weird when I see RE5's portrayal of black people, but it's hard for me to rationally explain or differentiate from depictions of other races/skin colors components of a zombie horde. Maybe the way the African zombies were modeled, animated, and portrayed was done in an insensitive or exaggerated way that has somehow set off alarm bells in the heads of some of us that have seen it. I'm not sure. But something is bothering people about RE5's African zombies, that's for sure.

    And yet, I don't recall people raising any stink over Far Cry 2's depiction of mixed race bad guys. Perhaps that's because FC2 was more nuanced in its presentation showed a more full spectrum, if you will, than does RE5's depiction of a bloodthirsty African mob. Perhaps it was also because FC2's depiction of blacks wasn't so exaggerated and offensive looking as the RE5 depictions somehow manage to be. Clearly there's more to it than simple skin color.

    Reply »
  • CG-Prophet

    3/3/2009 9:18:19 PM

    I think micro-analyzing this is important and I hope this discussion continues. If this industry is going to mature it has to have the ability to look inward.

    The one thing I can't get by is how all the regular people look so savage. As someone in this thread said earlier, perhaps if Capcom had presented some of the Africans as happy and going about their business prior to the outbreak, then maybe there wouldn’t be any issue.

    Reply »
  • EvanNarcisse

    3/3/2009 7:29:17 PM

    @MSUSteve: FYI -- I know you're operating in good faith here, and so am I.

    My "full spectrum" remark was more directed at world-building and character creation in fictional constructs, not as a blueprint to Acceptable Black Villainy. More nuance is always better than less, no matter what/who you're portraying.

    I think RE5 is a flashpoint because the way its fiction is constructed, actual real-world historical context is elusive (unlike in the COD franchise, where I think developers know who you EXPECT to be the bad guys). Without that, maybe people's minds wander into weird, uncomfortable essentialized myths about Africa.

    Why else? COD = Western developers recreating clash of (mostly) Western powers, so there's more normalization there? Remember, it was a BIG deal last year when the Japanese were added to World at War. They were an "exotic" enemy with a differentiated AI. Stresses were made to point out that historical context was being followed in the construction of the Japanese antagonists.

    Your idea about power imbalance feels right, too, but I always chafe at any heavy-handed symbolization. I dunno, maybe it's all the sensitivity that creates the discussion. Cultural subtext is always part of creative endeavor, whether people admit it or not, like it or not. Would the discussions about COD or RE4 been characteristically different, had they happened? Maybe certain historical antecedents, atrocities or portrayals feel "further" away from the present? Conversations about race across the black/white color line continue to be some of the most twitchy and volatile, and, right now, this is where it's manifesting in the video game industry.

    The problem is, in any such case in any cultural production, no matter what motive you assign to the creators, no one can say I'm not feeling what I'm feeling. How then does one engage that feeling? Random folks declaring over-sensitivity is just too easy a gloss.

    I don't know if I'm getting at what you want. *Sigh*

    Reply »
  • MSUSteve
    MSUSteve

    3/3/2009 6:38:46 PM

    @EvanNarcisse: I just don't recall being shown the full spectrum of life for the Nazis/Japanese soldiers I killed in Call of Duty or hell, the Spaniards in Resident Evil 4. I understand that atrocities have been committed against black people and that they've been demonized in popular culture in the past and that RE5's depiction brings all that up. But atrocities and demonization have not been exclusively perpetrated against black folks. People didn't decry the bloodshed in RE4 as being reminiscent of the Spanish Civil War or bat an eye at the Russian invasion of Germany in CoD: World at War. I'm not saying this stuff shouldn't be discussed, but then why is it only discussed now that RE5 features dark skinned Africans? The same "full spectrum of life" wasn't shown in these other cases and I'm not convinced that the enemies being black makes it more important to do so.

    I'm sensitive to the feelings that arise when seeing the images from RE5, but I wonder why it has generated so much discussion and other games have not. Is it because black people are a minority, and thus violence perpetrated on black antagonists is really violence perpetrated on those without power by those with power? Perhaps. And hell, maybe that's the case. I'm trying to work out my own feelings too as far as this goes.

    Reply »
  • EvanNarcisse

    3/3/2009 4:25:35 PM

    @MSUSteve: You wrote "The images don't have to be meant in any particular way to evoke and mimic negative past portrayals and stereotypes. I tend to agree that there isn't much of a way around this unless one just gives up and doesn't set any game where dark skinned people live."

    That's just a dead end. Look, last night on 24, I watched a squad of Africans led by a corrupt military strongman storm the White House and was thrilled by the show. Black guys can be bad guys, too. It's all about the specificity of those portrayals. Show the full spectrum of life, then display how it's upended by horror. Build in some contradiction and some complexity.

    Reply »
  • EvanNarcisse

    3/3/2009 4:16:40 PM

    @sharkboy007: You wrote: "As for people just coming into the RE universe and seeing this, there's plenty of ways for them to become familiar with this universe (aside from the crappy movies), that there's really no excuse for any ignorance."

    So, you advocate people entering into the RE universe to educate themselves to avoid any misunderstandings. What if they still wind up feeling weird and uncomfortable?

    Reply »
  • RyanKuo

    3/3/2009 4:03:57 PM

    This might be a good time to remind people that you shoot and kill people in videogames. That's what sets them apart as a form of entertainment, and that's why, when your game intentionally depicts the player's targets as being of a certain race or ethnicity, you invite feedback.

    And again, it's not as simple as the hue they chose for the zombies' skin graphic. As everyone knows, your partner in this game is also black. But she's not "black" like the black zombies are "black."

    Reply »
  • MSUSteve
    MSUSteve

    3/3/2009 3:55:17 PM

    @sharkboy007: The images don't have to be meant in any particular way to evoke and mimic negative past portrayals and stereotypes. I tend to agree that there isn't much of a way around this unless one just gives up and doesn't set any game where dark skinned people live.

    Reply »
  • sharkboy007
    sharkboy007

    3/3/2009 3:48:05 PM

    @MSUSteve:

    And I agree for the most part, IF the images are negative and meant to be so. However, these things need to be looked at in the larger context. The game is set in Africa, where the population is predominantly dark skinned. As such, you can't really get around that, short of never setting anything in that country.

    As for reacting to such images, perhaps that's the issue. People are reacting, rather than stopping to think. Do I think that people aren't going to have a reaction? No, but I think people need to take responsibility to take the next step, which is to analyze it before engaging in some knee jerk reaction, and no, I don't think the interviewer was engaged in that. Seems to me he was taking that next step, which is fine. I just happen to think that not everything needs to be tied to race, or racist motives. If RE5 were set in the middle east, you'd see those people instead, as they're the predominant group there.

    As for people just coming into the RE universe and seeing this, there's plenty of ways for them to become familiar with this universe (aside from the crappy movies), that there's really no excuse for any ignorance.

    Reply »
  • MSUSteve
    MSUSteve

    3/3/2009 3:35:20 PM

    @sharkboy007: "While I understand the concerns here, in the end, it's just a freaking game designed to entertain."

    That's true, but if it calls to mind negative portrayals from the past, it's a valid point of discussion. Moreover, just because something offensive is contained in entertainment, doesn't make it okay, right?

    "If someone is going to go out and commit violence on any specific race, it's going to happen regardless of what is consumed in the various media. To say that RE5 is going to have some kind of implications towards shaping peoples perceptions of Africans and those of African descent (who, btw, CAN be white, look at Chalize Theron), is the same thing as saying that gangsta rap is going to have some kind of implications towards people going out, grabbing a gun and doing drive bys."

    I don't think anyone is saying anything to that effect. People are just seeing and reacting to images that evoke strong feelings tied to, at least for Americans, negative portrayals of blacks from the past.

    Reply »
  • sharkboy007
    sharkboy007

    3/3/2009 3:27:55 PM

    @MSUSteve:

    The only thing Capcom could have done would be to have the player shooting white mercs. That seems to be the only acceptable group that it's ok to blast the crap out of, white people and nazis (and I'm aware that I'm making a sweeping generalization here).

    While I understand the concerns here, in the end, it's just a freaking game designed to entertain. If someone is going to go out and commit violence on any specific race, it's going to happen regardless of what is consumed in the various media. To say that RE5 is going to have some kind of implications towards shaping peoples perceptions of Africans and those of African descent (who, btw, CAN be white, look at Chalize Theron), is the same thing as saying that gangsta rap is going to have some kind of implications towards people going out, grabbing a gun and doing drive bys.

    And in the end, do we HAVE to drag race into every single thing we do as a society? If you want to get past racial issues, stop dragging them out at every opportunity. Maybe if we give it a rest, people can move on.

    At the end of the day, I'm going to play RE5 and I'm going to have fun blasting the crap out of ZOMBIES.

    Reply »
  • MSUSteve
    MSUSteve

    3/3/2009 3:13:34 PM

    @GusMastrapa: All acts of war are heinous, no matter who commits them. I just thought Mr. Takeuchi's phrasing had some strange implications.

    @RyanKuo:Are there any civilians on RE5? You guys would know better than me as I have no access to the review version. I only played the demo. I understand that the portrayal of black people in RE5 conjures up images and thoughts of awful portrayals of blacks from America's past. I wonder what, if anything, Capcom could've done to prevent that while still keeping the game in Africa. Some at Qt3 have suggested that showing the villagers going about normal, happy lives prior to the infection might've helped.

    @CG-Prophet:If anything I think less would be made of the same imagery if used in a movie simply because people are more used to movies presenting that sort of thing. Regardless, I absolutely don't buy into the "it's just entertainment" argument. If the entertainment makes one think about something, whether intended or not, it's certainly worth discussing and considering.

    Reply »
  • Nintendo_Girl
    Nintendo_Girl

    3/3/2009 3:12:47 PM

    Thank you for this, I can't wait till' RE5~!

    Reply »
  • johnteti
    johnteti

    3/3/2009 3:06:34 PM

    I had trouble with this statement:

    "At the end of the day, we're making a piece of entertainment. We're not making anything that has a political message to it."

    A does not follow B there. The fact that something is "entertainment" -- a pretty ill-defined boundary -- doesn't mean it can't send a message. Nor does it absolve a creator of responsibility for thinking about a work's cultural context. It's intellectually dishonest to just throw up some jazz hands and say, "Heyyy, that's entertainment!"

    I'm not saying Takeuchi has to agree with the criticism or trot himself out for critics until they are satisfied. To his credit, Takeuchi does engage the question of cultural sensitivity in good faith throughout the conversation. It's a good talk, and Takeuchi makes some excellent points. But he undermines himself by repeatedly coming back to this "At the end of the day, it's entertainment" refrain. That's not standing behind your work, it's sidestepping.

    Overall, this piece succeeds because it's a happy instance of right person, right place, right time. As Ryan mentioned, the vast majority of discussion on this topic has been to the effect of "Is RE5 racist or not?!?!" That approach is so facile and unnecessarily polarizing that it hasn't produced much discourse of any value. But here's Evan with an informed, nuanced perspective, talking to the guy at the center of the debate. Good stuff.

    Reply »
  • GusMastrapa
    GusMastrapa

    3/3/2009 1:50:35 PM

    @MSUSteve:

    It's not a new or crazy position that the fire bombing of Tokyo and the obliteration of Dresden were horrific deeds.

    Reply »
  • CG-Prophet

    3/3/2009 1:35:08 PM

    @RyanKuo:

    That is it exactly. There are times when it is hard to distinguish who the infected are because everyone looks so menacing - even women and children. That's my take on it, anyway.


    Also i'd like to expand on this whole "it's entertainment" argument for a minute. Would the reaction be different if this was a movie?

    And as another example, a movie directed by Spike Lee or John Singleton presented in the same way?

    Does entertainment get a free pass?


    (these are questions, not statements)


    Reply »
  • RyanKuo

    3/3/2009 12:42:19 PM

    @MSUSteve:

    My bad. I misread the Tokyo comment.

    I think the issue larger than the fact that your targets are black. The Africa your white guy walks into is a weird, shadowy space where even the human Africans appear threatening. Combine that with mobs of subhuman black zombies that slaughter and get slaughtered, and you have an ugly subtext.

    Reply »
  • MSUSteve
    MSUSteve

    3/3/2009 11:56:31 AM

    @RyanKuo: Well no one was nuked in Tokyo, right? Which is the city Mr. Takeuchi directly referenced. I don't disagree that ALL citizens killed in war are victims, but Takeuchi implies that the Americans who dropped bombs on the Japanese were "bad" but that doesn't mean Japanese people think that all Americans are bad. That statement seems to suggest that bad Americans were dropping bombs all over Japan with no reason or provocation. I recognize that I could be reading a ton into Takeuchi's statement, but that's my take anyway.

    Regarding the portrayal of black people in RE5, I realize how the images could conjure the negative portrayals of blacks from the past. I'm just not sure how one would get around that and still set the game in Africa. Is it even possible?

    Reply »
  • dr_anomaly

    3/3/2009 11:41:42 AM

    You got guts Mr. Narcisse. Most would have skirted around issues like this (especially game journalists). However you took it right to the man in charge. That's why this site is so great. Crispy is the only platform for bold writers that go beyond cheat-codes..... (also Scott was swell too.)

    Reply »
  • RyanKuo

    3/3/2009 11:16:30 AM

    * "as someone for whom black stereotypes are still alive" should have read "as someone for whom black stereotypes are still relevant."

    Reply »
  • RyanKuo

    3/3/2009 11:06:36 AM

    @MSUSteve:

    If you're nuked, you're a victim. It shouldn't matter who started it.

    I feel like RE5 elicits at least three conflicting responses: a) Black people are offended by the game's overlap with historical racist portrayals of black people; b) Non-black people who are familiar with racist portrayals of black people interpret the game's imagery as such; c) People who aren't aware that racist stereotypes still underlie popular culture even if not overt also aren't aware that a) and b) are valid readings.

    The first can be either valid or reactionary; the second potentially implicates the player as someone for whom black stereotypes are still alive. It's more problematic than the "ZOMG is RE5 trying to be racist or not?!" angle many stories are taking make it out to be.

    It's further complicated by the (I think) fact that Japanese portrayals of non-Japanese, as Takeuchi says, tend to be non-malicious exaggerations of racial/cultural characteristics that sometimes verge on harmful stereotype. Look at the characters in Street Fighter II. Dee Jay is a smiley, partying Jamaican guy; Zangief is a huge Russian bear; Chun Li is a mannish-yet-vulnerable, pigtail-wearing Chinese girl. The difference is that you're not killing anybody in that series. I guess I'd argue that when guns are involved, you need to think more about the way you portray those being shot.

    Reply »
  • JasonMcMaster

    3/3/2009 10:53:40 AM

    Nice piece guys.

    Reply »
  • MSUSteve
    MSUSteve

    3/3/2009 9:19:03 AM

    "If you look at us in Japan, one generation ago Japanese people who hadn't done anything wrong were being bombed in Tokyo and other places during the war. That doesn't mean that we think that Americans are all bad or that we think that Americans are bad at all."

    You've got to be kidding me. Someone should remind him that THEY ATTACKED US. This isn't the first time I've read a comment by a Japanese person that implies the Japanese were victims in World War II. It's a bizarre stance to take.

    Regarding the issue of race in the game, I admit that I have a hard time understanding why the zombies having dark skin raises any consternation at all. Most games have the protagonist killing light skinned people/zombies/whatever. Because RE5 is in Africa, the zombies are dark skinned. That's as far as it goes. I'm not trying to be thick headed or reductionist, but it really does seem that simple to me.

    Reply »
  • TroyGoodfellow
    TroyGoodfellow

    3/3/2009 7:39:09 AM

    Very nice interview, guys. It's always easier to raise these sorts of questions out of earshot of the developers; glad you didn't take the easy road.

    Reply »
  • CG-Prophet

    3/3/2009 2:10:35 AM

    I agree, it is a great piece with some questions that really bring the topic front and center. I think it's a good jumping point for a serious discussion on how race is handled in video games in general.

    Reply »
  • unangbangkay
    unangbangkay

    3/3/2009 12:15:21 AM

    Great piece, Evan. It's easy for someone who isn't of African descent to say, "Hey, it's set in Africa, so what's the problem with having Africans in it?" But harder to really disconnect it from that stigma. And then the next question is whether we should even try disconnecting it from that stigma.

    Reply »

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