The Questionable Ethics of Brütal Legend

Should games do the right thing?
10/26/2009 12:52 PM | 34 Comments | Page 1 of 2

David Thomas
David Thomas
Status: Arghhasaashhahhhhhhhrrrrrggrgr.
If you had to choose, would you rather die by gunshot or melting?

This is hypothetical, of course. Because I never asked the people I murdered what they would prefer. I just went right ahead and gunned down a prostitute in one game and melted the faces of a bunch of dudes in another. Because nothing ever really challenged me to think about the consequences of my actions, asked me to think about right and wrong, or pointed out it actually takes some real effort to even consider the question of ethics and videogames.

But I am going to try, starting with shooting and face melting.

If I stopped to think about it, I'd have to say that melting faces is a much more hideous crime. Not that shooting people is OK. It's just that portraying a very real kind of violent inner-city crime in Grand Theft Auto seems tame next to the kind of malice it takes to conjure up a demon force in Brütal Legend that melts away someone's face like it was made of wax. You just stand there and gloat, watching as the victim falls to his knees, in pain, crying out, only to topple over and then disappear.

Funny thing, the prostitute disappeared after I popped a cap in her ass too.

This, my dear students of philosophy, or theology, or media theory, is what passes for moral thought in videogames.

Kill or be killed? If only games operated by such an elevated moral code. The average game is a thin veneer of cause lacquered over a fundamental sadistic delight in ending life. Any life. Lots of life. Preferably ugly, mean life. But life, nonetheless.

Brutal Legend Feature
Is Tim Schafer praying? I wonder why...
Before you send my name and number over to Jack Thompson so we can have drinks, I'd like to stand up and defend the average run-and-gun fantasy churned out of the videogame manufacturing plant, because I think that games are fundamentally about emancipation. If you don't know what that means, hoof it downtown to talk to your local dirty communist and ask. But until that day, just think of it as this: Games are about sticking it to the Man, about feeling powerful, about freedom; even if that involves killing fake people and/or their creature equivalents.

Like it or not, the main line of ethical debate in games, then, comes down to the question of killing. Whether Fallout 3, Grand Theft Auto or so many other games that ask you to kill, all this pretend mayhem always polarizes the issue into two camps that I like to call the "games are not real" and the "they are real enough" sides. In either case, the argument is essentially the same -- either the fun in the game is getting to do something you would never do in real life, or the tragedy in the game is doing something you should never do in real Iife. As far apart as the ban-violent-games and enjoy-violent-games sides can be, in the middle sits the simple idea that both sides agree on: Something is going on. What, exactly? This is the realm of ethics, the philosophy of right action, the science of learning to sit up straight and fly right. And whether you have a graduate degree in the topic or just rely on talk radio to tell you the difference between right and wrong, the fact is, a discussion about good and bad behavior is a conversation worth having.

Which is a long way of saying this:

Yeah, you kill stuff in Brütal Legend and you kill stuff in lots of other games. And as much as this might be moral choice or moral issue, that's not the itchy ethical ambiguity at the heart of this popular and celebrated game.

The cancer in the flesh of Brütal Legend's ethics is the cultural phenomenon that game genuflects toward. You got it. The moral conundrum in Brütal Legend is nothing less obvious than metal itself.

Brutal Legend Feature
Seriously, I'm just a roadie. I help people. I like to stay behind the scenes.
Which means this:

Not only does this game honor the interactive wit and wisdom of Tim Schafer, introduce the umlaut as a legitimate design element in games, and provide a thunderously righteous musical soundtrack, it also pours a sticky black cloud of ambiguous evil over the entire notion of games and ethics. You think killing prostitutes is immoral? What do you make of a game that turns you into a kid in Satan's service?

If you haven't been paying attention for the last, oh let's say 30 years, then perhaps you have missed the subtle sublimation of metal from counterculture rebellion to satan-soaked riot to in-your-face revolt. In other words, with metal, enough was never enough. In a relative short period of time we went from loud volume as a form of nonconformance, to biting off the heads of bats, to demon worship, to a serial-killer-level love of the grotesque. Metal has always felt a need to align with the dark side, and as the spotlight of popular culture moved closer, Black Sabbath wasn't dark enough -- so we had to invent Cannibal Corpse.

To really understand Brütal Legend is to understand the wonderful, weird and wanton era of metal that spans between Led Zeppelin and the rise of the hair metal bands, or about the time that people started to take Twisted Sister seriously. During this historical sweep, metal turned from a classic rock-and-roll interest in sex and sound to a more philosophical contemplation in shaking loose the hegemonic shackles of Western, Christian culture. Or as I pointed out before: sticking it to the Man. As the genre evolved, God wasn't so much as dead as he was reincarnated into a pagan force that we've been brought up to think of as evil. If rock was founded on Catholic roots -- party on Saturday night and confess on Sunday -- metal was channeling Odinism: old horned gods, rising up, smiting, hosting wild bacchanals, chopping off heads, sacrificing virgins. Classic devil-worship fun.

Surprisingly, perhaps, this particular line of thought is not an indictment of metal. Far from it. Confined to a sonic prison of anger/hate/loneliness/alienation/boredom, it's as hard to deny metal its thematic palette as it would be to suggest that painters should use less blue in their work. Ugliness is just a popular hue in this particular mode of expression.

And that's why we can scoff when a kid's parents want to sue Judas Priest because their kid blew off part of his face while listening to "Better By You, Better Than Me." We say, "And yeah, whattaya gonna do next? Ban blue paint?!" It's an aesthetic argument, and one that makes a lot of sense.

The trouble is, once you make metal the moral imperative of a game and not just some form of artistic expression, you walk onto some pretty thin ice. The whole idea of killing in a game has always been framed by the important point that you were the good guy killing the bad guys.

Brutal Legend Feature
Just because the hero has devil wings doesn't mean he is a devil. Right?
So whether or not there is something wrong with canonizing metal in general, the issue at hand is this: Metal is about evil. That's pretty hard to debate. If you make a game about metal, you have this tricky issue of how to maintain the artistic heart of metal without animating some immoral Frankenstein when you bring it to life in a game. This is essentially the same problem that faces a game like Grand Theft Auto, where perfectly rational people objected to the idea of glorifying a life of crime. Of course, in GTA, you were not expected to love crime, just to see it as a wry commentary on life in a consumerist society.

But in Brütal Legend, you are supposed to love metal. Even more, you are supposed to save metal. And who asks you to do this? A demon. Demons are bad, right? And how the hell can a good-guy videogame hero be the same guy who is going to save metal? This game asks us to think of evil as good and another evil as really evil; and if it gets confusing, hahahahahahaha, we are supposed to laugh. As if people dying in a concentration camp was a good chuckle in the right context.

Ironic contexts that make you do the wrong thing for the right reason may be the primary tool in Quentin Tarantino's toolbox. And perhaps we just live in an ironic age. But isn't it an oxymoron to suggest a good guy can serve evil? Aren't we in jumbo-shrimp territory now? Sure, it's very ironic and rich and postmodern. But it's also ultimately sloppy and confusing.

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Comments

  • Andy Bates
    Andy Bates

    11/22/2009 2:32:38 AM

    @DavidThomas:

    “To the contrary, I think that a game that uses metal and humor and a narrative that does not attempt to define good is an ambiguous undertaking that makes asking questions worthwhile.”

    The game defines good. The good guys promote freedom and rock; the bad guys enslave and coerce. The good guys want to live their lives, and the bad guys want control. Sure, the good guys try to impress a girl, or swear, or kill their enemies. And sure, they have a “demon” on their side (who is really more of a primal force than anything else). But again, you can’t just define evil tautologically. “Demons are evil because they are evil.” Not everything with bat wings is evil. Just ask Batman.

    Reply »
  • Worm
    Worm

    10/29/2009 1:42:40 PM

    @DavidThomas:
    First of all, these are issues you can take with Devil May Cry, Tekken, or Messiah. So I don't know why suddenly this issue has burst out with Brutal Legend, you could apply your article (sans the bits on metal) to a number of games.

    I still am waiting for my copy to ship from ebay, but if they say "you're evil, but not bad evil, cool evil" in the game, and that's what your article is based on, then you're the most obtuse person in the world.

    I said brutality because that is a representation of evil manifest in the real world. You bandied around the word enough for a guy who doesn't really believe in it, so I'm working with the assumption that we're talking about evil as a force, if you want to back pedal you can rewrite the article or stop replying.

    My point here is that you're more worried about evil iconography being represented in a video game than a video game that lets you act out real life dastardly acts.

    To bring this into the season, It's almost like being hung up on what's worse, a Ted Bundy costume or a Slutty Devil costume. I really don't understand the issue with the game, and I really hope you don't write a similar thing about Bayonetta "Lemme get this right, the things I kill have Angel wings? AND I'M THE GOOD GUY?"

    I just seriously take issue with your premise at it's core, and I feel you're either confused or purposefully writing something like this for the traffic.

    Reply »
  • w1ndst0rm
    w1ndst0rm

    10/29/2009 1:37:06 PM

    @Swimon:

    I was being a little melodramatic to show the futility of where this thread was going. Then the rest of your post showed why such discussions are pretty unresolvable.

    I'm going back to 'live and let live' and 1P RPG's on my PS3.
    (more melodrama)

    Reply »
  • Swimon
    Swimon

    10/29/2009 1:31:53 PM

    @w1ndst0rm:

    What is more noble or moral than entertaining? All the societal change in the world is for naught if there is no fun in life.

    So can games be ethical? To be honest I don't know because I get the feeling I'm not really understanding you. I suppose any game that entertains more than it hurts people would be moral (even if I would say that it's the game makers who are moral and not the game as it is not a sentient being but really that's semantics). At least as a consequentialistic hedonist (happiness is the goal and the effect of your actions define their worth) that's the way I see it. But then again it seems as this is not what you mean but what exactly you ask I cannot grasp.

    Reply »
  • DavidThomas
    Game Trust Member
    DavidThomas (Game Trust Writer)

    10/29/2009 12:05:16 PM

    @Worm:

    To quote you: "He can't realize that metal adopted satanic imagery because it was cool and in fact that's the reason most people adopt that imagery."

    Um, that's sort of the point. What does it mean when we think that evil is cool? Off the top of my head, that sounds like a discussion question of an ethical nature.

    Personally, I don't even believe in evil per se. I certainly believe that people do awful things. And I do think that there is some sort of implicit moral code that people tend to adhere too.

    But if I was really concerned about human brutality and violence, then perhaps I would be on the "games are too violent bandwagon".

    I'm not.

    I just want to talk about the nature of human action, of ethics and morality and the questions that I think are, obviously, raised by Brutal Legend.

    Some of the comments on this thread have been very perceptive--they have called into question the nature of our accepted notions of good and evil, the narrative structure of a private imagination and even the propriety of spending real time lost in pretend places. All of this is great discussion.

    What gets me are the people that basically want to say: These are games, stop taking them seriously.

    Really? You mean I can't question Brutal Legend because it's not worth it?

    To the contrary, I think that a game that uses metal and humor and a narrative that does not attempt to define good is an ambiguous undertaking that makes asking questions worthwhile.

    Reply »
  • Crispy Specials

  • CG-Prophet
    Game Trust Member
    CG-Prophet (Game Trust Writer)

    10/29/2009 10:59:30 AM

    @Worm:

    You said: "I wonder if this writer thinks there are cabals of Satan Worshippers in the world who sacrifice animals once in awhile."


    Now read my reply. I don't acknowledge or deny the existence of anything - I’m not going to dive into a argument about belief systems in a comment thread about ethics and games.




    Reply »
  • Worm
    Worm

    10/29/2009 10:30:02 AM

    @CG-Prophet:

    You do realize you just went "THERE ARE PLENTY OF DEVIL WORSHIPPERS OOOOOOoooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooOOOOOOOOoooo", in pure ghost story around the camp fire fashion, right?

    It's like you guys instead of saying "better the devil you know than the devil you don't" say "better the devil that doesn't exist than the one I'm in denial about".

    I don't deny that people sacrifice animals, and some people might do it as a devil worshipers. However it's just nonsense when you try to argue that it's a network of people who take orders from the ACTUAL SATAN.

    That seems to be the author's problem. He can't realize that metal adopted satanic imagery because it was cool and in fact that's the reason most people adopt that imagery.

    Hell, Satan has been COOL since Paradise Lost was wrote, you guys are stumbling over blocks that most people have moved far beyond.

    Reply »
  • CG-Prophet
    Game Trust Member
    CG-Prophet (Game Trust Writer)

    10/29/2009 9:52:59 AM

    @Worm:

    There are and if you believe that man has somehow evolved beyond such primitive behavior then you are extremely naive.

    Reply »
  • Worm
    Worm

    10/29/2009 8:24:25 AM

    I really don't get how likely non-existent manifestations of evil(demons, monsters, Cannibal Corpse, etc) are more of an issue for this writer than real world manifestations of evil (brutality, murder, etc).

    I guess it's just an issue of non-existent evil being easier for more people to take issue with. I wonder if this writer thinks there are cabals of Satan Worshippers in the world who sacrifice animals once in awhile.

    Reply »
  • RyanKuo
    Game Trust Member
    RyanKuo (Game Trust Writer)

    10/28/2009 11:36:57 AM

    @SteveRaygun:

    :)

    Reply »
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  • SteveRaygun
    SteveRaygun

    10/28/2009 10:55:27 AM

    Look what you guys decided was worth running.

    Reply »
  • Remo
    Remo

    10/28/2009 2:34:46 AM

    I don't feel you've defined evil well enough for me to understand the ethical conflict you are setting up here. You constantly refer to "evil," but what do you mean? You say demons are evil, and society has decided as such, but what does that mean exactly, particularly in the context of metal?

    Metal has always been self-contradicting when it comes to the notion of "evil." And I believe you're confusing concepts of evil imagery--which is always what this particular brand of metal has been more interested in--with ethically evil behavior. Besides killing the "evil evil" guys--something that the I-guess-not-evil? antiheroes you hold as counterexamples also do in great measure. He leers at women, you say. Is that your example of evil? Maybe it is evil. But again, you'd find just as many non-evil antiheroes who do the same. Doesn't Snake do that?

    The "evil evil" folks in Brutal Legend enslave. At worst, the hero can be accused of being a poor judge of character when it proves unfortunately harmful, and of being too eagerly prone to violence--hardly out of character for a video game protagonist. The latter did test my suspension of disbelief, but it didn't cause me a moral crisis.

    I also don't understand how you can repeatedly, in the story and your comments, hammer home how "demons are evil" is based on "our" Western Christian tradition, and yet in the story you acknowledge the basis of metal as coming out of Norse traditions. It seems very selective and contradictory to me.

    Furthermore, you pose a distinction between being doing bad things while being The Good Guy, and generally being this "evil" thing you keep referring to, even if the "evil" character doesn't actually do anything very evil other than kill those who would harm him. Why is the latter "some pretty thin ice"? As far as I'm concerned, you have it 100% wrong in that respect. I think claiming a character is the good guy, while having him commit ACTUAL atrocities, is far more worrisome.

    Reply »
  • SaRGe_smith
    SaRGe_smith

    10/27/2009 9:16:58 PM

    I think part of the problem with discussions of this type is that we lack a vocabulary in which to hold them. The way it's phrased, of course BL is morally corrupt, you help evil win after all. However, when you start talking ETHICALLY its an entirely different story. In my mind, the difference between ethical and moral is morality stems from religion and can't operate outside of the concepts presented as facts in that religion (ie, it's okay to eat a heart if your mayan, but if your christian, you prefer a little distance in your cannabalism) while ethics stem from a society/civilization and can be discussed by how much they harm or help society.

    While american legal and social mores are definately founded on a judo-christian ethic, the basic tenets of civilation revolve around property rights. Basically, these start at it's wrong to snuff people out (depriving of their life) , all the way up to it's wrong to cost people time or effort on your behalf with out their okay (I'm looking at bums here). So when you start to frame the discussion like this, i think that video games are, at their core, ethical, but various iterations become more or less ethical due to content. I personally have been playing video games for 16 years and i don't think they've ever negatively affected my impact on society.

    Basically, until we set the language to something that doesn't carry a lot of loaded meaning to the people who are talking about it, we will never be able to address the ethics of games properly.

    BTW, I haven't played BL myself yet, but it sounds as though the game is setting you up to be the lesser of two evils, which is what most of lifes choices are all about.

    Reply »
  • Sinnerman
    Sinnerman

    10/27/2009 6:18:10 PM

    @DavidThomas:

    Re: Player not having much freedom or reason to play on. The game was so much about Eddie to me that I was happy to play out whatever motivations he had and even got into the spirit of the music he likes even though it's mostly not to my taste.

    If the game had any neat take home "moral" to me then it is that it is better to face up to bad things inside and outside yourself. It's better to be open with other people and explore the world you live in. Did their need to be as much violence and profanity in the game and does this help make the point? I don't know for sure but the game felt like it was true to it's sources of inspiration.

    Reply »
  • DavidThomas
    Game Trust Member
    DavidThomas (Game Trust Writer)

    10/27/2009 4:01:23 PM

    For some reason, this topic, more than others I have taken on, has really brought out the bile in people (mostly on other forums!). I suppose it's because I DARE TO CRITICIZE A GAME PEOPLE LIKE.

    So, maybe this is to be expected.

    But I do think it is worth making a few things clear, just for the sake of discussion.

    1. I don't have a big issue with Brutal Legend's ethics. But I do think that calling them questionable--as in we ought to talk about them--OK. For the record, I turned off the bad language and let my kids play it. I'm not that worried about it.

    2. While I don't think ethics ought to be relative, I am not, in this article at least, arguing for a particular moral base. Instead, I am pointing out that in the day to day of life, demons are not good. I didn't decide this. It's the way we connect demon-to-evil. If you don't like that, then the burden is on you to take the concepts apart. And thankfully, some of the folks in this discussion have been wise enough to do that.

    3. This whole article started when I began to play the game and went: Wait? Am I a good guy? Or a bad guy? The game really didn't seem to care. It was too busy being funny. I just thought this was weird. In GTA you are a bad guy. They tell you this. There's a line in Vice City where Tommy Vercetti says, "This city has more criminals in it than prison." Vice City is a den of evil, so you are off the hook if you just want to get ahead. In KOTOR or Fable, you can chose to be evil. But that always felt a little weak to me. It was more like being naughty. But at least it was clear--Hi. I am evil. I am dressed up like an evil guy. So I get to do pretend evil things. BL is different because it never even bothers to talk about good and evil. Just thought that was odd.

    4. I am not a metal expert, but I wrote about rock for 10+ years. I am sure I know more death metal bands than your average gamer. So, I like metal too. I just think it should open a discussion--not a fan boy argument.

    Reply »
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  • MSUSteve
    MSUSteve

    10/27/2009 2:49:47 PM

    I have considered this only superficially while playing Brutal Legend. I've seen a couple of the history lesson movie things and they talk about how a big fire demon showed up and made the world too bright for the horrible creatures that had existed in the darkness. But an avatar of the same fire demon showed up at the beginning of the game and decapitated three guys, the sole reason for it being that they made bad music. So yeah, I thought a bit about whether or not I, as Eddie, was actually a good guy at all. But the values hewed to by Eddie and his pals (at least so far) definitely put them in the good guy camp in my mind.

    Reply »
  • seven
    seven

    10/27/2009 2:38:01 PM

    @DavidThomas:

    "So, this just seems to dodge the bigger issue of, 'What should the basis of ethics be?'"

    More importantly it goes back to what is your morality which your ethics are based on. The problem with your article is that it assumes the standard western Jewish/Christian set of morality where demons/satan is evil and angels/god is good (a black and white example) therefore any game that says demons vs demons is bound to be evil because there is no gray scale.

    I've had arguments lately that ask what is the authority on morality. What if society has a standard morality? A standard that everyone follows but not everyone agrees with 100%. Some people feel that abortion is wrong but it's legal in many parts of the world and sometimes encouraged. Does it make it right? What if it does if society says it's ok? I submit to you that society is the authority, that society is made up of many cultures, religions and politics which shape our morals and ethics.

    Unfortunately this answers your question of is Brutal Legend ethical and the answer is yes it is. You will always get those who say it's a slippery slope but it is generally from those who follow a specific morality that counters the ethics in question not a society based morality/ethic.

    Interesting discussion.

    Reply »
  • CG-Prophet
    Game Trust Member
    CG-Prophet (Game Trust Writer)

    10/27/2009 12:54:39 PM

    @DavidThomas:

    David, I always enjoy reading your articles, even though I think you don’t always truly believe what your are saying. The basis for your entire argument - which I’m sure you’ll correct me if I am misstating your position - is that Brutal Legend is more unethical than any other game ever made, is kind of silly. Brutal Legend is just more honest about it. Personally I think most games are unethical.

    In Fable 2 you can murder your wife and send your kid off to an orphanage - that's far worse than melting faces and serving demons. Being evil when you are pretending to be good is far worse than just being plain old evil. At least we all know where you stand.




    Reply »
  • DavidThomas
    Game Trust Member
    DavidThomas (Game Trust Writer)

    10/27/2009 11:29:25 AM

    @JohnKeefer:

    If ethics are relative, then I think we have a problem. That leads to mob rule, right? Let's just say that you are a nice, well behaved and respectuful Wiccan minding your own business. And then a bunch of Christians decide you are bad and must be burned. Darn. Ethics are relative so there is no higher appeal and you loose.

    That doesn't make sense. So, this just seems to dodge the bigger issue of, "What should the basis of ethics be?"

    This may not be the right forum to answer that. But the question stalks a game like Brutal Legend, and I think it is odd so many people want the question to just go away.

    @BugMeNot Fair enough. There is metal that is not about evil. But that always struck me as odd. Kinda like Christian rock. How can you really rock with all the sex and drugs rock & roll entails while still praising the lord? Fact is, Christian rock sucks, for the most part. Or doesn't seem very Christian.

    But your point is well taken.

    @Sinnerman: I agree with most of what you say, but this Walter Mitty fantasy, which is shared by the player, is exactly one of freedom. Right? It just seems to me fair to ask what the freedom is in service of. Maybe it is nothing more than a happy go lucky farce. I hope that was clear in the story that I am not dead set on pilloring BL. I just thought from the get go it was odd that the game gave you so little reason to act--considering you were conjured by a fire spewing demon.

    @TokenSatanist: Thanks for the level-headed words. You and I could have a long talk, to be sure! But in the context of this discussion, I think that simple good and evil run on a narrative axis where good is defined by Western Christian tradition and evil is largely seen as anything opposed to that--including lumping insanity with all kinds of old traditions the church wanted to dump.

    And, yes, I agree metal kinds of takes delight in the muddle. Not surprising, then, a game about metal has questionable ethic!

    Reply »
  • w1ndst0rm
    w1ndst0rm

    10/26/2009 10:05:47 PM

    @DavidThomas:
    Hey again, yeah, I know you were making a point about BL but my brain keeps going after I read things and that is where I ended up. Thanks for a rather guilt ridden afternoon. ;)

    Can games be ethical? If they can, what does that mean? And if they are, then is Brutal Legend an ethical game?

    I'll play and go with this. No. There isn't a video game in the world that could be ethical - under any set of views\rules\reactions. Every minute and every dollar spent playing and buying or even making video games could be used for something, anything better or more noble if you want. Used better for something that would fit whatever variable morality you live in.

    The only way to make an ethical video game would be to start by making gaming into some kind of religion or world power and grow it into something that would bring pressure onto society and control it or change it. Then centuries later, since the ground work would be laid, we could make and play video games that are ethical under that new world order.

    Reply »
  • Crispy Specials

  • TokenSatanist
    TokenSatanist

    10/26/2009 8:04:20 PM

    @DavidThomas:
    Thank you for bringing this up. I agree that it is a discussion worth having, just as with the GTA series.

    I don't know if games themselves can be ethical, but games certainly can contain moral content and present moral dilemmas. We are seeing increases in this as gamers grow up and continue being gamers, no longer satisfied with Disney-esque content. Can a movie, book, painting, etc. be moral, or is art just a vehicle for belief?

    A lot of the extremism in metal has led to some interesting territory for all involved in the genre. I'd say it's not a matter of questionable ethics, but rather questioning ethics. A re-evaluation of values is present in the genre, especially among bands who don't just use the devil for show. Maybe the clear cut angels aren't the good guys, maybe the hedonistic "sin" loving devils are better for humanity. How many people are killed by Satan in the Bible as compared to God? Who do you think is really on our side? These are questions that are taken seriously among those who aren't shocked out of their mind by their nature. It's not that evil is cool, it's that evil may not be evil, and the imagery used is done with pride and not fear. Brutal Legend tries to sidestep this by making it Demons versus Demons, but metal music doesn't pull it's punches that way. That's why a truly metal game raises similar questions. "Cool evil" (creative hedonism) versus "Not-Cool evil" (fascist crusades).

    As a Satanist with Asatru/Odinist friends and Wiccan parents I'll spare you the wrath for mentioning such concepts in the same sentence. You, as many others, simply just don't know, and the lines blurred by Catholic frontmen in bands like Slayer or the Black Metal mix and mash of pagan/satan-ism aren't helping you understand either. It's murky territory even for those who believe that they know their stuff.

    Chill out Cosmic Muffet, you have a chance to educate someone on what "is", don't immediately jump down their throat.

    Reply »
  • Sinnerman
    Sinnerman

    10/26/2009 7:58:26 PM

    I don't think that Brutal Legend is a story about redemption and freedom. To me it more about wish fulfilment and ambiguity and while it is fun I think it does have some meaning.

    It's a Secret Life of Walter Mitty sort of deal where a fantasy about a heavy metal roadie develops into a rich fantasy world in a way that reminds me of the "Game Of You" arc in Neil Gaiman's Sandman comics. I suppose that not everyone has read that so I can't draw too many parallels but themes about the brutality of nature and how do deal with people who mess up your dreams are themes that are strong in both.

    I see Eddie as someone who is placed in a situation where he is allowed to be true to his nature. In the end his nature turns out to be fairly benevolent although in this world not even the Demons he kills are properly demonised. Tainted Coil are often shown as being victims and unlike some military forces the Ironheades have a clear casus belli and campaign goals.

    Reply »
  • BugMeNot
    BugMeNot

    10/26/2009 7:32:33 PM

    "Metal is about evil. That's pretty hard to debate."

    Erm. Tell that to Lykathea Aflame, whose lyrics center around philosophy and spiritual redemption. Or OM, with their focus on Hinduism. Slough Feg (who appear in this very game's soundtrack, at that!), and their sci-fi epic Traveler. Wolves in the Throm Room and Drudkh, with their themes of nature. And so on, and so on.

    This is, admittedly, unrelated to the main point you were trying to make regarding "can a game be (un)ethical", but the quoted comment stuck in my craw. Metal is a pretty broad umbrella, and there's a lot more being expressed under there than just Venom-esque "look how evil we are" silliness.

    Reply »
  • DavidThomas
    Game Trust Member
    DavidThomas (Game Trust Writer)

    10/26/2009 7:25:06 PM

    @The Cosmic Muffet:

    You make a good point. But most of this is covered in my poorly thought out story.

    Yes, our ethical orientation is one brought to Western Civilization by the church. If you want to argue that is a poor basis for morality, then fine. For you, the ethics of Brutal Legend are not questionable. I can buy that. But within the context of the game and metal, it is still an evil purpose. Right? Oh wait, right, now evil is good and good is evil. So, there you go, Brutal Legend is a good game. But all the good games that ask you to work within the current moral system now are bad games, right?

    And while I enjoy metal and don't find a problem with the artistic expression--the story is pretty clear on this point--I do ask what happens when you put those cathartic experiences into an interactive story. Does this change the ethical basis? You'd have to argue that Brutal Legend lets you come to terms with all your monstrous rage, to follow your argument. I don't know that it does that.

    But beyond that, I think you are making good argument that people deserve more than the moral system they have been handed. Wasn't there a fellow named Nietzsche that had a similar thought?

    Reply »
  • JohnKeefer
    Game Trust Member
    JohnKeefer (Game Trust Writer)

    10/26/2009 7:00:02 PM

    @DavidThomas:

    "Can games be ethical?"

    What definition are you using? What religion, business practice, culture? Ethical as a America WASP lawyer may be different than a Israeli financier or a German politician, or an Irish Catholic professor.

    Ethics is in the eye of the beholder, based on how you were raised weighed against your current beliefs and associations. In the end it is an ambiguous question that will lead to endless debate ...

    Bravo for starting the discussion ;)

    Reply »
  • Crispy Specials

  • DavidThomas
    Game Trust Member
    DavidThomas (Game Trust Writer)

    10/26/2009 6:28:45 PM

    Ha! You guys are killing me!

    @w1ndst0rm: I think the central ambiguity here is whether games can be ethical or not. If you can make an ethical game, then it stands to reason that you can make an unethical game.

    There are lot's of games that people think of as unethical--Custer's Revenge, for example, or games that glorify racism or terrorism.

    My question is less far ranging the the ethical basis of games, and more focused on Brutal Legend.

    Why pick on Brutal Legend? I guess it comes down to the fact that this game really make no obvious apology for it's evil. Evil is funny and cool. So, evil is good. This make's BL more interesting as a subject of moral conversation than games that are simply about something we find repugnant or worthwhile.

    @Switchbreak: Yes. Demons are evil. Sort of like cup cakes are little desert cakes. This is not a semantic argument. The whole point of being a demon is that you are evil. Right? (At least in the Western Christian way of seeing things)

    So @everyone: You all sound like you want to apologize for videogames rather than engage the question (well w1ndst0rm certainly is mulling the implications). So, my question for the peanut gallery, and the current head peanut and author of this article is this:

    Can games be ethical? If they can, what does that mean? And if they are, then is Brutal Legend an ethical game?

    Reply »
  • The Cosmic Muffet
    The Cosmic Muffet

    10/26/2009 6:25:55 PM

    This article is offensively poorly thought out. The author can't tell the difference make the effort to differentiate between demonic carnal human sacrifice crap and paganism, regardless of flavor? The demonization of preexisting religious and ethical frameworks by christianity is wrapped up in the demonization of human urges which affect the control the church had in society. To argue that men doing something noble just to get the attention of a woman is somehow morally dubious or even juvenile is nothing but toeing a political line that's been hammered into society for 100s of years for selfish reasons. Loyalty to a woman or even your children is loyalty which undermines the control of the state--which, in the case of this imagery is the catholic church. Individualism isn't necessarily the end all and be all of existence and civilization, but if civilization is not a tool to serve the individual, then it demeans and degrades for the sake of some greater good, and that, has consistently been considered evil. Using society as a bludgeon to declare the urges that make us human evil and against some larger moral imperative is the language of dictatorship and fascism. We are not a slime mold with undifferentiable pieces. Heavy metal is, above all, about music which taps into a vital part of our humanity which we cannot simply discard with some hypothetical maturity. We have developed to be violent, angry, and aggressive--we can feel pain and despair. Society is no good to us if it cannot address these feelings, and, very often, it cannot. This is a form of art which does serve to divert and celebrate our humanity without making us dangerous animals. Is it better for someone with anger and sadness to be subjected to easy listening until they become so estranged or depressed that they hurt someone? These art forms are not flirting with evil, as you so condescendingly put it. They are an attempt to understand, and deal with natural urges bred in us by an unkind universe.

    Reply »
  • xbeeno
    xbeeno

    10/26/2009 6:25:23 PM

    OK thats makin pretty good sense to me dude!

    RT
    www.anonymous.ua.tc

    Reply »
  • CG-Prophet
    Game Trust Member
    CG-Prophet (Game Trust Writer)

    10/26/2009 6:04:27 PM

    @evohollywood:

    To be fair, mushrooms and mold can be the natural enemy of a plumber. That's why they charge us extra for greenboard in bathrooms, right? I can't explain why they hate turtles though.

    Reply »
  • evohollywood
    evohollywood

    10/26/2009 3:48:51 PM

    @CG-Prophet:

    Totally agree, think of how many goomba's Mario stomps with little or no pretense. They were just walking in his general direction, sure Mario would die if they came into contact but Mario could easily avoid them. Instead Mario is given points for killing as many of them as possible.

    Evan

    Reply »
  • Crispy Specials

  • CG-Prophet
    Game Trust Member
    CG-Prophet (Game Trust Writer)

    10/26/2009 3:30:54 PM

    I don't think Brutal Legend is any more morally ambiguous than any other game. In fact it's more honest than most. Many of the justifications for killing in games are as thin as Eddie's decision to choose Demon side A over Demon side B anyway.


    Reply »
  • Switchbreak
    Switchbreak

    10/26/2009 3:24:10 PM

    Aren't we past the point where things being demonic or satanic automatically means evil? Shouldn't an article on ethics look at the actual ethics of the game characters rather than just the semiotics? At the beginning of the game Eddie starts out without a weapon, surrounded by people who are wielding swords with murderous intent. He grabs an axe and goes to war to defend and liberate people who take him in and protect him. Yes, he smokes, drinks, and likes women. So do I. This doesn't mean you're playing the "evil" side, it means he's an interesting character.

    Reply »
  • w1ndst0rm
    w1ndst0rm

    10/26/2009 2:35:36 PM

    I enjoyed reading the piece, BTW.

    Would it be inappropriate to expand the discussion on video games and ethics/morality?

    I ask because I just spent four days playing video games and board games non stop. I ask because I am about to drop a couple hundrend dollars on Q4 video gaming nirvana. I took off work to play and will do it again twice in November.

    All the while the USA is in the middle of two botched wars. All the while within 10 miles of homeless people and it has already snowed here twice. I live a few miles from a hospital with a crack baby ward that needs help ...

    And you ask if we need to be aware of our morality and ethics in a video game?!

    Again, I'm not sure we care if it matters or not.


    Now if you will excuse me I am going to go listen to my EMO station on Pandora.

    Reply »
  • w1ndst0rm
    w1ndst0rm

    10/26/2009 1:46:19 PM

    "Having played a lot of games, and killed my far share of hookers, demons and innocent bystanders, I'm hoping that games are about this fun thing and not about the big questions: life, the universe and everything."

    Wait, is having fun pretending to be immoral or unethical okay then? Does it depend on if the player understands what is going on? Or do you just want video games to be about fun so you don't have to answer the question you just spent two pages bringing us to?

    Anyway, humanity with her hyprocisy and ignorance (selfishness?) has been "in a massively multiplayer world of trouble" for ... forever. Hasn't seemed to matter to enough of us so far.

    Reply »

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