Games Are Not Art

Scribblenauts as the triumph of game over aesthetics
9/30/2009 11:36 AM | 70 Comments | Page 1 of 2

David Thomas
David Thomas
Status: Ever just feel like eating cookies?
Roger Ebert doesn't think games are art.

John Carmack doesn't think games are art.

John, meet Roger. Roger, meet John. John and Roger, meet Scribblenauts, a game that proves your point and shows why games are not art, or at the very least, don't need to be art. And at the very, very least, games would be better off if they stopped worrying about the whole art thing all together.

Call me a troll and tell my why I'll never have a girlfriend for daring to actually think about the subject of videogame aesthetics. But before you go after me the way you went after Roger, follow the line of thought:

  • Scribblenauts is not really about goals or meaning.

  • Our aesthetics-focused game criticism looks for beauty in a game, and that usually means some glorious visuals, thundering narrative sense, elegant game mechanics and certainly a pleasing conclusion, like the crashing conclusion of a symphony.

  • But games are about play, and play can just ramble along, surprising us and keeping us thinking.
And that's why I'd call Scribblenauts "game of year" even though some critics are iffy on the game, and I know I have to play another 100 games before now and 2010. But it's OK, Scribblenauts is that good.

Games are not Art
Art or adventure!
Before we go any further, I want to point something out about Scribblenauts that is sort of obvious, though no one has seemed to have bothered to spell it out.

I am not sure how many objects there are in the 'nauts database, but 10,000 keeps coming up. I have heard 20,000, and I am assuming that is because there are a lot of words that conjure the same object. For example, Moby Dick and Herman Melville both produce a little dude that looks like Indiana Jones, but might be a famous 19th-century author, or perhaps is a sailor named Ishmael.

So let's assume there are 10,000 objects in the game. Since you typically need combinations of objects to solve each level, you have this crazy combinatorial possibility of play. Assuming that it takes about three objects on average to solve a puzzle, that means there are 1 trillion possible ways to solve a single level! If you are like me, and play slow, sloppy and lazy, and generally conjure up five objects per level, then to figure out how to get that car started and drive it up the hill you have 100 quintrillion possible options.

These mind-numbing, impossibly large numbers go lightspeed if you just toss in one more object. Take six objects to solve your little Scribblenauts dilemma and you have a septillion possible options -- that's a million billion billion. That's 1,000 times more Scribblenauts options than there are grains of sand on the earth. That's a universe of possibility shoved into a cheap chit of plastic you can pick up at Target for $30.

That, my friends, is fun with math.

And while I will admit that not every combination is helpful (Can you stop a rampaging bear with coconut, coconut, coconut, coconut, coconut? Maybe not), the simple fact that you have access to a practically infinite number of possible solutions tells you what you need to know about the game. This title isn't about winning; it's about trying stuff out.

Games are not Art
Is this art? No, it's fun!
Or maybe we should put it this way:

This is a game you play. And play. And play. And as a result, this is one of the purest forms of gameplay love that we've seen in a long time. In doing what it does, Scribblenauts breaks free of the growing tyranny of classical aesthetics that has slowly been choking the fun out of games.

Let me explain.

The whole idea that games are aesthetic objects, or art in any meaningful sense, is to simultaneously misunderstand art, aesthetics and games. The three get thrown together because our basic notion of art holds that a) you experience something, b) it makes you go "wow," and then c) someone puts it in an art museum. Since people experiencing games often go "wow," and every once in a while someone tries to put them in a museum, we assume that games are either art, or gosh darn it, they ought to be! As a special bonus, since artists can submerge crucifixes in human whiz and get the full protection of the First Amendment, then we really ought to consider games as art just to keep them out of the censors' glare.

The trouble is, art is about beauty and some sort of unspeakable experience of the Other. Games just need to be fun. And while you have some art that is kind of fun -- like Duchamp putting toilets in galleries, doodling moustaches on famous portraits, and painting nudes walking down steps with all the panache he could muster in a picture that looks like so many pretzel sticks tossed in a pile -- art has no real business in the fun business. Likewise, as sublime as moments in Flower might be, or as achingly evocative as Braid is for some people, take away the fun and you get art games -- beautiful pieces of work like Passage which are plenty artistic, just not that much fun.

This earnest pursuit of beauty in games has turned into a reverence for the art in the game -- the graphics, the music, the story, the elegance of the game system or the architectural wonder of the level design. And games have responded by becoming more and more a directed experience, a goal to reach, and less about just having fun. And by fun, I mean that silly state of delirium that comes from playing around with all the seriousness you can muster while pretending things are not what they really are. After all, it's only fun to survive a nuclear holocaust to find your dad MIA, or be left in a city overrun by zombies with a bunch of other knuckleheads, to the degree that that it's just sort of apocalyptic and horrific. Art's gotta be about something tangible or important; games have to constantly pretend they are not.

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Comments

  • gah
    gah

    10/6/2009 3:51:22 PM

    Wow. #1 Who cares if it's art? In other words, are we missing a legal point here or whining about how our hobbies don't get any respect?
    #2. If you're only real anti-art argument is that it's interactive, that's goofy. Art isn't defined as static or out of the viewer's control. In fact art is barely defined at all.
    #3. If on the other hand you are saying that the result of code is not art, ala a bot can't make art, again who cares? If J. Fred Muggs can paint the cover of a magazine, I think a randomizing process can create.

    Reply »
  • RyanKuo

    10/6/2009 3:22:32 PM

    @Matt Coughlan:

    I have a hunch that the term "video" will eventually include both "digital video" and "video game." It's always been weird to me that video and film, while being fundamentally different mediums, are still referred to somewhat interchangeably. But the more that video gets spun out onto the Internet, the easier it is to take video and mess with video; and the more mimetic games become, the less difference I see between them. Kind of like how the effective difference between photography and computer-generated imagery is pretty nil these days.

    Reply »
  • Matt Coughlan
    Matt Coughlan

    10/6/2009 1:54:00 PM

    @RyanKuo:

    As artists and audiences become more technologically savvy, it doesn't surprise me that art itself will evolve to include digital elements with peripheral input and outputs.

    Just as oil paintings evolved from cave paintings, so too will digital experiences evolve to include the observer's directions. A video game minus the game is exactly what you described: a virtual space where the audience controls how the particular piece is perceived, akin to architecture.

    The issue at hand is the terminology used to describe these experiences. Just as the modern usage of "art" is a truncated version of "fine art", when equally valid uses are for crafts, designs, commercial art, even things as abstract as the "military arts."

    Unfortunately, "video game" is the term we have for any digital multimedia experience where the spectator has some measure of control. Take away the audience participation, and you have T.V or movies. Take away the digital aspects, and you have interactive theatre.

    Somewhere along the line a term must be developed that implies only the input elements that can be used for experiences that both include and exclude games.

    (And I'm not suggesting this term, just an example) Something like "digivid" where you could say:

    "My froofy friend wantz me 2 watch this art digivid, but I'd really rather play Madden 127. I really like digivid gamez!!! Tho I need 2 go 2 the digivid bank 2 get mor creditz so I can by Final Fantasy XXXXXVI. U really would have thot they wood have finished that by now, u know, since its like supposed 2 be final?"

    Reply »
  • RyanKuo

    10/6/2009 12:59:06 PM

    @Matt Coughlan:

    You reminded me of some video art installations I read about last year. I can't remember the artist, but you basically stand on a podium surrounded by this panoramic screen. There's a joystick that lets you look around the world and maneuver deeper into the environment. When you don't move, it's a photograph; when you do, it's a film. The very basic idea is that your reading of the space, as a static viewer, undergoes profound changes as you negotiate the environment. The piece tracks, as phenomenological shifts, the differences in the ways we interface with various media.

    This is stuff that videogames do all the time, without really thinking about it, by virtue of being videogames. But the artist had to arrive at the same place after jumping through a convoluted series of conceptual hoops. It's a lot more boring here, but it's a perfect illustration of how the same basic thing - an interactive world you navigate with a joystick - can be interpreted in two entirely different ways, game and art.

    Reply »
  • Matt Coughlan
    Matt Coughlan

    10/6/2009 1:36:57 AM

    Sorry, I'm late to this conversation...

    I think there needs to be a new name for a digital multimedia experience currently known as a video game, sort of how the word "video" encapsulates both non-art (broadcast news) and art (some movies and t.v. shows).

    There could conceivably be a thing with a 3D environment, a musical score, and breathtaking beauty, in which you can create an avatar and manipulate virtual objects, without being a "game". (I'm using game in the loosest definition here, somewhere in between these many definitions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game )

    Conversely, you can have a game with minimal aesthetic value, lacking in narrative and meaning, and yet be one heck of a game, as the OP has pointed out.

    The confusion here is because both are contained within one medium, and people are not used to telling the difference.

    So I absolutely agree that games are not art, however, I disagree with the assertion that they can't work in parallel. Video games can be both games AND art. (That's why I hate the term video game: Not all video games necessarily have to be games.) Sort of how a movie can be both entertaining and informative, artistic and playful, fun and thought-provoking.

    Just because something is a game doesn't mean it can't also be art, and just because it's art doesn't mean it can't also be a game. The two are not mutually exclusive, and emphasizing one does not necessarily decrease the value of the other.

    So yes, Scribblenauts does not have to be art to be a good game. Though I can call to mind good games that are also good art (like World of Warcraft or Bioshock.) It's up to the individual person to decide what they want out of a video game, and if all you want is a game, then that's fine.

    However, (and I think the OP would agree) perhaps getting an art museum every time you want to play baseball might be a tad extreme.

    Reply »
  • RyanKuo

    10/5/2009 9:15:50 AM

    @stalepie:

    Interesting argument - so for you, there is a certain absurdity and playfulness to games, which at their purest and least imitative start to resemble works of art?

    I had thought about Streets of Rage, Mario, Doom, etc. in a sort of formalistic, true-to-the-medium kind of way, but hadn't gone quite that far about it. This reminds of something I read last night:

    " 'The thing about these games... They mean so much while you're playing. All your inventive skills. All your energies. But when you get a little older and stop playing, the games escape the mind completely.'

    ...

    How children adapt to available surfaces, using curbstones, stoops and manhole covers. How they take the pockmarked world and turn a delicate inversion, making something brainy and rule-bound and smooth, and then spend the rest of their lives trying to repeat the process.

    ...

    'Children find a way. They sidestep time, as it were, and the ravages of progress. I think they operate in another time scheme altogether.' "

    And then baseball and chess are brought up as examples of games that adults play that seem to be taken in a completely different way, a little too seriously compared to the street games. So if art contains, if not depicts, a sort of timeline and a knowledge of progress and death, then games occupy this separate zone of play that everyone has to cross on their way out of childhood. They're like a bubble that pops as soon as you try to mess with that balance of rules and freedom.

    To me, video games seem to preserve that, if only because they are so forceful - at least, the more chaotic ones that you mention. Because the technology moves a little faster than us, we regress to a state of play.

    Reply »
  • CG-Prophet

    10/5/2009 8:41:15 AM

    @DavidThomas:

    David I don't disagree with what you are saying here and I think your points come across well in the article. Great discussion even if contentious at times.

    Reply »
  • DavidThomas

    10/5/2009 12:22:11 AM

    Just for fun, and to try and bring this conversation back to some sort of center--I wrote the whole "games are not art" thing as a way of understanding a specific game, Scribblenauts.

    I wanted to say that Scribblenauts is a better game than people say, if you can get away from the art concept and think of it as play. That's only about a million times more provocative than to suggest that games and art are two different things.

    I realize that we can talk about art all day, but, despite the title, I chose to talk about aesthetics. I think that games should not be worried about aesthetics. To do so, links them to a particular way of thinking about things that in this country is largely rooted in German ideal philosophy. I don't think games need that baggage.

    Further, I don't buy the "art is everything" or "art is many things so it is subjective" because that just undermines understanding. If art is everything, get rid of the word because it is useless. If art is subjective then you have tip toed up to a form of philosophical nihilism that aesthetics rose up to avoid--truth needs beauty and beauty needs truth, so to speak. You can't be making it up as you go along or we can't understand anything.

    When I look at Scribblenauts, I feel like very valid criticisms of the game are really art arguments--bleh, the design is not elegant, blah, the control scheme isn't tight, meh the level design is not inventive enough.

    When I played the game, it blew me away with what I was doing, not what the game was. Scribblenauts allowed me to play in a way that was free and exciting and different. So, I figured that saying, "Games are not art" was both obvious, and a way to talk about how games could be crazy wonderful when looked at merely as games.

    But this discussion has been exciting enough to convince me that maybe we should talk about why games are not art, why they don't need to be, and why they can be fantastic experiences and still not be art.

    Reply »
  • stalepie
    stalepie

    10/3/2009 11:54:11 PM

    Seems like great artists are the sort that don't enjoy games or view life in a light-hearted way, and so video games (which are essentially about "winning" and triumph of some sort) don't suit them much.

    "Real art" almost never has bright colors, happy sounds, etc., unless this is to indicate in some fashion the hollow surface of the world, underwhich lies great depravity and hypocrisy...

    When people talk of being "moved" by a film, not a movie, but a film, they usually mean in some feel-sorry-for or life-does-have-meaning-after-all kind of way. Not "that was totally awesome that he blew his head off and I can see his cranium fragments next to his shoes" kind of way. Yet it's hard, no, surely impossible, to evoke this in a game because the game asks you to continue playing and struggling to beat something, which requires a whole different sort of mindset.

    When I find myself admiring the artistic side of a video game, it's usually after I've mastered it, and I'm running through the levels again, not worrying about losing.

    Reply »
  • stalepie
    stalepie

    10/3/2009 11:32:25 PM

    Ico is mentioned a lot in these kind of articles. I think when people talk about art they are meaning beautiful, sad, pensive. It's hard to evoke these emotions/qualities in a game that's in any way hard, especially hard in a constant live-or-die way.

    Another reason games struggle to qualify as art is because they're usually about dying and restarting. But in life you can't undie. So death is tragic, justified or expected ("he lived a good long life"), but it's not the sort of death you can do to the main player in a game. The main player is basically immortal. There's a certain meaninglessness and silliness in this that other art forms don't have to deal with.

    But then what about architecture? Architecture is an art but it doesn't have any people in it.

    So art is an abstract thing that probably comes down to certain qualities like unity, patterns, contrast, skill, and tradition, and of course video games qualify for appreciation here.

    I think of play as a kid's activity mainly and of video games as a kid's art. A kid doesn't know much about death and hasn't usually lived long enough to experience the death of others and consider his own impending doom.

    In that way, fast-paced crazy, chaotic action games are more artistic than the deep-thinking spiritual sort like Ico, especially from the perspective of gameplay and mechanics. I put my money on Doom, Thunder Force III, Streets of Rage, Super Mario Bros. 3, Mortal Kombat (arcade), Ridge Racer, King's Field, Diablo, Grand Theft Auto, Ghouls n Ghosts, Strider (Genesis), Castlevania (NES), Wipeout, Sonic the Hedgehog 1, F-Zero, Etrian Odyssey, ... these games are all artistic to me, but not in a self-important way.

    I think video games can only hint at deep meaning. It's impossible to construct a game around this, though. The game part is always just "destroy this guy," "escape," "out-run," "find," etc.

    Reply »
  • stalepie
    stalepie

    10/3/2009 10:50:52 PM

    I think games are an art form. People like to point to the Lascaux caves as the beginning of art. It's interesting that that depicts hunting, or the destroying of creatures, which is the most common activity in video games. So it could be argued that the hunting/war experience is fundamental to art, and games deal with this. However I think mainly where games count as art is in their parts, such as visual design, sound effects and music. Whether the actual game component is an art is harder to decide. I would say no, because I wouldn't consider baseball, tennis or soccer to be art. However a painting of a soccer game is art (whether good or bad), and frankly that is how video games work: they are like paintings and music and theater. By dint of the fact they present limited experiences, you, in the course of exploring the entire game, build up in the recesses of your mind a gestalt image of the work which functions as the whole painting or album to consider for its aesthetic qualities. You consider things like, do all the moves, controls, enemies, explosions, etc., fit together into a pleasing whole, or would you rather this piece of music or this or that character have been different? Also I think it's worth pointing out that, at least for me, the most distinctive video games were among the more primitive ones, which screamed "I am a video game and nothing else!" After the CD-ROM age, that began to change. So, video games are art, but of an abstract sort. Just as one does not look at abstract paintings and think "this is full of meaning," so too one does not come away from video games with all their explosions and deaths and think it is full of meaning -- but it can be very pleasing aesthetically, nonetheless. I think this even comes down to the game's engine itself, that the programming code seems to be artistically pleasing in the way the design of a nice building is. Perhaps architecture is where video games are closest to, among the arts.

    Reply »
  • RyanKuo

    10/3/2009 1:52:23 PM

    @Michaelangel007:

    This is the one part that doesn't misread my points, so I'll stick to it:

    "The picture _is_ one level of art, because
    a) a human took the time to _create_ it,
    the intent is to convey (or invoke) some emotion"

    The question in this thread is about the fundamental nature of art and the fundamental nature of a game. Breaking down "art" into various tiers or "levels" changes the question entirely. It's a utilitarian, mechanical, almost engineer-like way of thinking about what makes art. Things are not art because they are created. And the intrinsic purpose of all pictures is not to convey some emotion. Somebody took the time to "create" a picture of an air conditioner in the instruction manual in my drawer. Yes, an instruction manual could be art. The point is, it's an instruction manual.

    Yes, a line of code, letters in your mailbox, trash, product design specs, pocket lint, and window panes all could be art. That's a beautiful quality about art, not a quality intrinsic to a line of code, letters in your mailbox, trash, product design specs, pocket lint, and window panes.

    That people draw art for games is neither here nor there. Games have images because we interface with them visually. Not because it was fated that games would be art.

    Yeah, in Another World and Geometry Wars and BioShock the pictures are clearly meant to resonate with the player. No one's denying that. But part of the argument here is that aesthetics are overemphasized in games. I'd be interested in hearing you argue that, for example, some games stop being games in a way when you don't care about their aesthetics.

    Reply »
  • Michaelangel007
    Michaelangel007

    10/3/2009 4:51:44 AM

    @Michaelangel007:

    Please delete double post.

    Thx.

    Reply »
  • Michaelangel007
    Michaelangel007

    10/3/2009 4:51:16 AM

    @RyanKuo:

    > and "Art" with a capital A, which is the only way that the word "art" is being used here.

    Yes, that IS the point. Art _is_ multi-dimensional. It's not just _one_ thing. You even admit this when you say: "So it is with the presence of "art" (as in, graphics and music and story) in a game." Why do you leave code or game design out of your definition of "art" ???? How do you decide what to include or exclude in your defintion of "art" ?? Software is just as valid a medium as the physical (or digital) canvas is.

    > "art" as a synonym for craft
    An artist implies that there is some skill involved, although we acknowledge our kid's drawings are art. Maybe not "great" art, but still art none the less. When you have people buying an artist's kid's pictures, it just validates that _someone_ thinks it is art. I would argue most people tend to think one of the differences between bad art and good art is the skill used. i.e. Low Quality Art = Low Quality skill used.

    > the use of a religious icon there is to reframe it in a new context; to wield it as a signifier of religion, not as religion itself.

    That is incorrect. Religion is _living_ your beliefs. If you do nothing with your beliefs they are just that, beliefs. When you _act_ on your beliefs, you are expressing your philosophy, your religion.

    An item becomes a religious artifact when it influences the way a person thinks and acts. The fact that some disagree over what is a religious artifact demonstrates that the value/religion is relative. Religion always starts at the individual level.


    > A game doesn't automatically reside on the art side just because somebody drew a picture.

    Yes it does. The picture _is_ one level of art, because
    a) a human took the time to _create_ it,
    b) the intent is to convey (or invoke) some emotion

    Ico is great (computer) art because it invokes emotion in the game player.

    Re: hot dogs & advil. Function _may_ be art. I would agree that usually it is not.

    Reply »
  • Michaelangel007
    Michaelangel007

    10/3/2009 4:51:13 AM

    @RyanKuo:

    > and "Art" with a capital A, which is the only way that the word "art" is being used here.

    Yes, that IS the point. Art _is_ multi-dimensional. It's not just _one_ thing. You even admit this when you say: "So it is with the presence of "art" (as in, graphics and music and story) in a game." Why do you leave code or game design out of your definition of "art" ???? How do you decide what to include or exclude in your defintion of "art" ?? Software is just as valid a medium as the physical (or digital) canvas is.

    > "art" as a synonym for craft
    An artist implies that there is some skill involved, although we acknowledge our kid's drawings are art. Maybe not "great" art, but still art none the less. When you have people buying an artist's kid's pictures, it just validates that _someone_ thinks it is art. I would argue most people tend to think one of the differences between bad art and good art is the skill used. i.e. Low Quality Art = Low Quality skill used.

    > the use of a religious icon there is to reframe it in a new context; to wield it as a signifier of religion, not as religion itself.

    That is incorrect. Religion is _living_ your beliefs. If you do nothing with your beliefs they are just that, beliefs. When you _act_ on your beliefs, you are expressing your philosophy, your religion.

    An item becomes a religious artifact when it influences the way a person thinks and acts. The fact that some disagree over what is a religious artifact demonstrates that the value/religion is relative. Religion always starts at the individual level.


    > A game doesn't automatically reside on the art side just because somebody drew a picture.

    Yes it does. The picture _is_ one level of art, because
    a) a human took the time to _create_ it,
    b) the intent is to convey (or invoke) some emotion

    Ico is great (computer) art because it invokes emotion in the game player.

    Re: hot dogs & advil. Function _may_ be art. I would agree that usually it is not.

    Reply »
  • RyanKuo

    10/2/2009 9:06:19 PM

    @Michaelangel007:

    You're using the word "art" in many different ways, which seems to bolster your argument because it has so many different parts but really just clouds your argument. You're talking about "art" as a literal component of gameplay, "art" as a synonym for craft, "art" interchangeably with great design, and "Art" with a capital A, which is the only way that the word "art" is being used here.

    The notion that games are made up of "art" like cars are made up of metal and plastic is a purely utilitarian argument that has zero place in a discussion about the nature of games and the nature of art. By that logic you could say that a piece of art in a museum that's made up of a religious icon in a jar of piss is also inherently a religious artifact because a religious symbol is one of its pieces. No; that's exactly not the point - the use of a religious icon there is to reframe it in a new context; to wield it as a signifier of religion, not as religion itself.

    So it is with the presence of "art" (as in, graphics and music and story) in a game. A game doesn't automatically reside on the art side just because somebody drew a picture. Yes, of course notions of art will inevitably creep in when you have these elements. But, just as easily, those elements can be used as signifiers of art while not building anything like art at all. That's in fact the same purpose they are serving in your argument. Things that look like art != art. That goes for "expression," too. What a vague word. Every single thing that exists in the universe can be argued to be an expression, because everything begets everything. We're verging on meaninglessness here.

    The nature of this argument is this: A hot dog tastes good. So does Advil. But a hot dog needs to taste good because it's a hot dog. Advil just does by coincidence. Its real goal is to make your headache go away. Advil should concentrate on the headache.

    Reply »
  • Michaelangel007
    Michaelangel007

    10/2/2009 8:52:22 PM

    In summary:

    * I mostly agree with the article. Games should focus more on gameplay, and stop using art as a crutch.

    * Games are art (for multiple reasons.) I would prefer to say "Games are Meta-Art." to minimize the confusion of what _level_ of Art are we talking about.

    * You can have good games without good art. But a good game along with good art usually makes the game even better.

    * Some games are defined by their art. i.e. "Find Waldo" games are defined because the art makes the game (more) interesting. Without the art, it's just not the same game.

    * It is possible to abstract art from (computer) games, but usually we find that common in strategy games, and most certainly with card games (where people buy into the abstraction with less reservations.)

    That's enough for now, so others can comment.

    Reply »
  • Michaelangel007
    Michaelangel007

    10/2/2009 8:36:41 PM

    @DavidThomas:

    > I understand things in different contexts take on different meanings .. videogames consume all kinds of media to get made.

    > The trouble is: More wonderful art and elegant code and evocative music doesn't make a game more a game.

    Yes, _traditional_ art is totally orthogonal to gameplay. My point is that games _themselves_ _are_ Art when viewed as a whole, even more so, when the pieces themselves _contain_ art.


    > Games should consume art. When they are done, the art should be gone and the game still there.

    That is usually what happens with traditional (non-computer) games. Chess, Mancala, Go, etc didn't last _thousands_ of years, because of some story or the art of the pieces involved -- they lasted precisely because the underlying game mechanics are timeless. The game (design) itself is a work of art.

    I'm not so sure I would want to divorce art from games. Do you complete jigsaw puzzles without pictures? Why not? Shouldn't the player be focused strictly on gameplay? I would argue that some games _depend_ on art (to define the gameplay.)

    Obviously abstraction is important, but art should _augment_ games. Sadly, I would agree that gameplay is usually sacrificed because of art.

    Secondly, unfortunately, today's society "values" marketing. We have hyper-commercialization of product placement in movies, hyper-realistic and over-sized breasts in fighting games, etc, because somebody thinks that linking sex, or "purty pictures" will help sell your game.

    In either case, the extremes (of not relying on art, or focusing too much on art) leads to poor gameplay.

    Art can be used as a tool increase awareness of games. Is that a bad thing? The merits of this is a whole another topic...

    Reply »
  • Michaelangel007
    Michaelangel007

    10/2/2009 8:23:57 PM

    @DavidThomas:

    > If I sit on a hamburger, does my food transform into furniture?

    Some people put piss in a jar, throw in a religious statue and call it Art. Whether I personally think it is art (or even good or bad art) is completely irrelevent. It is art, because:
    a) _someone_ is expressing something distinctly human, and
    b) somebody is probably getting a strong reaction from it (which is usually the the signs of good/bad/popular art.)

    There are a few things I don't personally consider "art", but others do -- which makes it art.

    > If I buy a painting and lock it up in a bank vault, did I turn art into an investment?

    I'm a programmer not an banker or portfolio manager. Some would argue yes, some would argue no. Either way, the value of art is "relative" depending on
    a) What someone thinks they can get for it
    b) What someone is willing to pay for it

    Furthermore, the SAME piece of art has _multiple_ values at the SAME time. It totally depends on the relationship of the parties involved.



    To be cont.

    Reply »
  • CG-Prophet

    10/2/2009 7:49:39 PM

    @DavidThomas:

    Is the hamburger raw? Because if it is you might transform into a person that has salmonella poisoning. Never sit on undercooked meat products.

    Reply »
  • DavidThomas

    10/2/2009 6:20:56 PM

    @Michaelangel007:

    If I sit on a hamburger, does my food transform into furniture?

    If I buy a painting and lock it up in a bank vault, did I turn art into an investment?

    Yes, I understand that things in different contexts take on different meanings. And I understand that games, especially videogames, consume all kinds of media to get made.

    The trouble is: More wonderful art and elegant code and evocative music doesn't make a game more a game. My argument here is that it makes it less a game. Or perhaps a hamburger chair--something staining to be what it's not.

    I realize this sound really weird because games have been obsessed with aesthetics, and that largely means visual fidelity, for 20 years.

    To this I would say: It is not a coincidence that the biggest selling platform this generation uses last years' technology. I picked Wii Bowling as the game of the year when it came out because people saw it and went crazy. They wanted to PLAY. Not have an artistic experience.

    Will games blend art and play into a thundering gesamtkunstwerk? I used to think so but now am leaning towards a definitely I doubt it. And that's because art and games are two different things.

    Perhaps part of this issue is something I haven't said yet, which is: What the appropriate relationship between art and games?

    So, here it goes:

    Games should consume art. When they are done, the art should be gone and the game still there.

    Or, if you are an artist, reverse it--let art consume the game.

    Just stop trying to make Reese's Peanut Buttercups of expression:)

    Reply »
  • Michaelangel007
    Michaelangel007

    10/2/2009 5:34:26 PM

    So if a game includes a "classical music score", or a digital drawing or "painting" the game is now magically not art?? As a programmer who has watched gifted Artists & Musicians create beautiful pieces of work _that could stand on their own_, except they were included in "just a game", Roger Ebert doesn't know what the hell he is talking about.

    Secondary, why do you think there is even the running cliche of "programmer art" ?

    This argument is a load of rubbish. Games are a _blend_ of science _and_ art. Anybody who tells you different has obviously never shipped one, let alone a few.

    There is both art in the _external_ (game) and _internal_ (code & design). There is such a thing as beautiful & elegant code. I've even written some once or twice, and certainly seen other programmers do it.

    Now I agree with the article that Art is a sufficient condition, not a necessary condition. Before we had fancy graphics and music, we used to play text based games, such as Zork, Nethack, Prisoner, etc. Hell, there is even ASCII ART, and some games even used that!

    I would argue that even games with minimal graphics, such as Tetris _are_ beautiful pieces of Art.

    Classics like Ico, Monkey Island, Ultima 7, Trine are most certainly artistic, and will be remembered who anyone isn't so closed minded to think they "know" what Art is when they haven't worked with the medium. Movies were never considered "serious art" 100 years ago either. Computer games are in exactly the same situation.

    _Any_ expression can be considered art. Now one could debate what constitutes "good" art vs "bad" art, but that is a discussion for another day.

    P.S.
    And Carmack, Doom _is_ a work of art. The original Doom has beautiful synergy & atmosphere.

    Reply »
  • CG-Prophet

    10/2/2009 4:38:52 PM

    @DavidThomas:

    Closing thought David (and don't think by my comments that I didn't enjoy this article - it's great): I think that art is like shit - it happens. Whatever medium - whether it's a scultpture made out of cow shit or a video game about the breezy flight path of pollen.

    Reply »
  • DavidThomas

    10/2/2009 1:25:04 PM

    @deathemon:

    I certainly have no issue with considering games or at least game development, a design discipline.

    Perhaps there is another rabbit hole we would go down if we start to say "games are design". But at this point, I don't really here that, so am not worried about it!

    Reply »
  • deathemon
    deathemon

    10/2/2009 1:31:12 AM

    Wouldn't games be considered design rather than art?

    Reply »
  • DavidThomas

    10/1/2009 6:05:03 PM

    @KyleOrland:

    Oh, and one other thing:

    Games are not art

    is an antidote to the much more common statement:

    Games are art

    By the way, I think you will find a parallel argument in Frank Lantz's "games are not media" rant.

    http://gamedesignadvance.com/?p=1567

    Reply »
  • RyanKuo

    10/1/2009 6:02:00 PM

    @DavidThomas:

    2. What would happen if games were art, or considered as such?

    There would be no difference between then and today IMO. Personally speaking, I'm interested in how a medium can overwhelm you not just through its form, but through technological means like a controller and visual interface. I see games as a perfect cyborg realization of man (sensibility) and machine (technology). They seem like a logical extension of the camera obscura. They're almost half-vicarious experience, half-creative medium. (Well, 90/10). A lot of people today are completely distracted. Games are one of the very few things that actually command our attention. It's like you have to inject knowledge straight into people. So that's really why games should aspire to art.

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  • CG-Prophet

    10/1/2009 5:58:55 PM

    While I don't think Ebert is a doofus, I often disagreed with the movies he liked and disliked. He should stick to movies. And as much as I admire and respect John Carmack, at the end of the day he creates engines, not games - and rockets in his spare time.

    When Tim Schaefer or Will Wright says games aren't art, then i'll pay attention to name drops.

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  • DavidThomas

    10/1/2009 5:57:47 PM

    @KyleOrland:

    OK, I KNEW that the headline "games are not art" would be eye catching. I admitted as much that people would think I was just trolling. But really, the argument is best summarized as "games are not art."

    To me that suggests two categories, and further emphasizes that they are not the same!

    Sort of like saying:

    Boys are not girls


    Sure, you can throw all the hermaphrodite and sex change arguments you want. But boys and girls are still two different things.

    As I pointed out a million words ago in this discussion--anything can become a material for art making. So, either saying "Games can be art" is either pointing out the obvious or, what I suspect is more likely, arguing that games should be art.

    And it sounds like on the "should" question, we both agree that games don't have to aspire to art. But if they want to, sure, why not?



    Reply »
  • KyleOrland

    10/1/2009 5:55:17 PM

    @RyanKuo:

    "And no one is arguing that games are not capable of being art."

    Ebert is. And the headline of this piece is.

    Reply »
  • RyanKuo

    10/1/2009 5:51:39 PM

    @KyleOrland:

    I am not personally arguing that games are not art. And no one is arguing that games are not capable of being art.

    I shouldn't have used a loaded phrase like "human condition." Basically I am talking about things that want to be beautiful. Of course games can be that.

    "Either a piece illuminates the human condition (and is art) or it doesn't (and it's not art). Right? Expanding to the medium as a whole, either that medium can illuminate the human condition (and is an artistic medium) or it can't (and it doesn't). Right?"

    Well, yes and no. Again, this isn't about "can" or "can't." It's about "should" or "shouldn't." You're cutting out the perspective of the creator. Unless a miracle happens, you have to want something to be beautiful to create something beautiful. So to even start with the question "Is this beautiful/sublime circle Y/N" someone has to have made the attempt. That's not exactly the same as whether they want it to be fun. Yes, they can intersect. But yes, also, they are somewhat separate.

    My contention is that if you look at how various mediums have developed and evolved, and at how artists themselves create, they intersect much more often, and much more freely, than David surmises. And games aren't in such a different place.

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  • KyleOrland

    10/1/2009 5:41:55 PM

    @RyanKuo:

    I take your point about my misuse of the specifics of the intentional fallacy. But I still take issue with statements like this:

    "When I look at art, I ... can safely assume that it is meant to illuminate the human condition in some way, big or small."

    Are you saying that there are _no_ games that are "meant to illuminate the human condition"? If "games are not art" then this must be the case. Or maybe you're arguing that _every_ game has to "mean to illuminate the human condition" for games to be art. By that metric, I don't think painting is art either!

    But why does the "meant to" come into it at all? Either a piece illuminates the human condition (and is art) or it doesn't (and it's not art). Right? Expanding to the medium as a whole, either that medium can illuminate the human condition (and is an artistic medium) or it can't (and it doesn't). Right?

    "No one is evaluating 'artistic merit,' much less 'the highest' examples. If you do that, then you already are assuming that games are art. This is a completely different argument -- that games don't have to get into that.

    This is actually two completely separate arguments conflated into one, as I said in my last post. No, games don't HAVE to get into that. But are you really arguing that they _can't_? That they aren't _able_ to? That is the message that comes across (and Ebert makes it explicit) when you say "games are not art." This is a _totally_ different statement from "games shouldn't try to be art."

    Reply »
  • RyanKuo

    10/1/2009 5:20:43 PM

    Ebert is a silly middlebrow doofus.

    Reply »
  • KyleOrland

    10/1/2009 5:19:48 PM

    @RyanKuo @DavidThomas:

    One final thing. From the first sentence of the Ebert piece you link above:

    "A year or so ago, I rashly wrote that video games could not be art."

    Could. Not. Be. Art.

    That's what Roger Ebert is saying when he says "Games are not art." Is that really what you are trying to say?

    SEMANTICS!

    Reply »
  • RyanKuo

    10/1/2009 5:19:47 PM

    @KyleOrland:

    "Trying to puzzle out the creator's intent and evaluate based on that is a fool's game."

    That's not the game I am playing. I'm playing the same game you are. Looking at the work and coming to conclusions about it. But we always make some assumption about what purpose a work must serve. That is in our nature -- to have ideals. For example, when we evaluate the qualities of a game, we're doing so within a certain framework ... how fun is this, etc. When I look at art, I (really wonder why I am debating this but OK whatever) can safely assume that it is meant to illuminate the human condition in some way, big or small.

    Again, intentional fallacy with BioShock would be to say, "This is an awesome game because the creators were trying to make a comment about Ayn Rand and as far as I can tell THEY REALLY DID IT!" That argument would, for example, ignore other important stuff like whether the Vita-Chambers undermined the flow of the game. That is a specific literary critical concept that doesn't have anything to do with the issue of what art is about. You might as well wield it against statements like "This food tastes good! The chef wanted it to taste good. Food should taste good." Laying out the goals of art is an argument about philosophy, not intention.

    "you have to look at the highest artistic opportunities the medium affords, not at the artistic merit of every single example in the medium."

    But there's all kinds of loaded language embedded in what you're saying. No one is evaluating "artistic merit," much less "the highest" examples. If you do that, then you already are assuming that games are art. This is a completely different argument -- that games don't have to get into that.

    Reply »
  • KyleOrland

    10/1/2009 5:16:11 PM

    @DavidThomas:

    The real problem, I think, is the conflation of two arguments that you try to pull off in this sentence:

    "John and Roger, meet Scribblenauts, a game that proves your point and shows why games are not art, or at the very least, don't need to be art."

    I definitely agree, at the very least, that games don't need to be art (by your definition), and are often better off for ignoring lofty messages and focusing on fun. But I think saying "games are not art" implies that "games _can't be art" and "games _can't_ achieve the goals of beauty, truth of sublimeness." This is an _entirely_ different argument than the one you're making in this piece, despite the headline.

    I don't think fun and BTS art-hood are mutually exclusive propositions for a game. It's a tough balancing act, to be sure, but it's one you seem to acknowledge that Braid and Flower manage to pull off, even if game's like Passage don't. Given those two counterexamples of games that are "sublime" and "achingly evocative" (your words) I just don't see how you can get away with making such a sweeping and, yes, judgmental statement like "games are not art."

    Reply »
  • KyleOrland

    10/1/2009 5:02:21 PM

    @RyanKuo:

    I'd argue that "capable" is always the question when you're discussing an _entire medium_ and asking whether or not it is "art" (which _is_ what you're doing when you make a statement like "games are/aren't art"). Gaming is so incredibly diverse... how can you make a statement about artistry that's supposed to cover both "Flower" and "E.T." for the Atari 2600? You can discuss _specific_ games and ask whether they meet this definition of art, but when you discuss "games" in their entirety you have to look at the highest artistic opportunities the medium affords, not at the artistic merit of every single example in the medium. To do anything else is to make the statement "games are/aren't art" practically meaningless.

    I'd feel much better about this piece if it was headlined "Games shouldn't be art," which is the very reasonable argument David is actually making, I think, and an entirely different one than the tired "Are games art?/What is art?" debate we're mired in in these comments.

    As for defining art by what it _tries_ to do, again I'd point you to the intentional fallacy. Why does it matter what the creators of BioShock were _trying_ to achieve when they created it? Either it says something about beauty and truth in a sublime way or it does not. Who says the creators of "Batman: Arkham Asylum" weren't _trying_ just as hard to make a statement on the nature of evil and human nature with their game, even if it's less successful at it? The work itself is the only reliable measuring stick we have, and the work's success at achieving BTS (i.e. whether or not it's "good") is what most people are evaluating when they're say whether or not a specific work is "art." Trying to puzzle out the creator's intent and evaluate based on that is a fool's game.

    Reply »
  • DavidThomas

    10/1/2009 4:44:10 PM

    @svladcjelli:

    Wow. Step away from the computer for a bit and you really miss out on the fun!

    But let me start here: Brilliant comment svladcjelli! I look forward to more of your riveting analysis.

    Next up: Thanks @Ryan for doing a really good job of clarifying my argument. Yes, this is not an anti-art argument. Rather, it is a pro game argument. Or put it this way:

    What good would it be if games were art?

    @w1ndst0rm: You asked for a definition of fun. It's packed in the story, but cribbing from Sutton-Smith, I would say fun is the pleasure comes from experiecing something that is both the thing and not the thing. The usual example I use--dress up like a cop on Halloween and that's fun. Unless you are a cop. Pretending to be a police officer when you are not and everyone knows you are not, but you look like one anyway, is fun. That's the concept of police officer at play, having fun, freed from being the thing, but still the thing.

    This is very different from art which strives to be, as Kyle as so eloquently compressed it--BTS.

    @infinitysend: I see where you are coming from. But games no one finds fun are not games. You might have a game system or or a simulation. But the nature of games is that they are about fun. Entertainment seems to me to be some effort to quantify how much fun. So, I would argue--there is no such thing as a no fun game.

    This discussion has been great, despite, well, OK in part because it stresses Kyle out (and as one of the co-editors on the Style Guide, Kyle and I have had a lot of fun trying to define things!).

    What it all comes to for me at this point is:

    1. Why does everyone want games to be art? To what end?

    2. What would happen if games were art, or considered as such?

    I think, as Ryan pointed out, we give games a lot of lip service around art and aesthetics and never seem to question whether any of this was going to help anyone make better games or allow players to enjoy them better.

    Reply »
  • RyanKuo

    10/1/2009 4:27:54 PM

    @KyleOrland:

    "But even if a lot of games aren't fun, you'd never make a statement as broad and sweeping as "games aren't fun," right?

    Or headline an article with it?"

    Well ... that's maybe a matter of style :)

    Anyway, in my review I said that Scribblenauts often is NOT that fun. And that's what makes it not the greatest game IMO. In concept it's perfect fun. In execution, it's here and there. I have no idea if it's art or not.

    Reply »
  • RyanKuo

    10/1/2009 4:23:05 PM

    @KyleOrland:

    2 points -

    "it strongly implies that games are not even _capable_ of achieving the BTS standard that's generally agreed upon. I strongly disagree with this implication."

    I don't think "capable" is the question, is it? He says Flower and Braid are art. They're games too. But games aren't really the same as art. They can try all they want to be art, but they'll lose something game-y in the process (except Flower, which miraculously gets a pass). I think that's the argument here. Obviously I disagree.

    On this: "the word "art" has come, by connotation, to mean only "good art" in most people's minds."

    Well, that brings to mind the phrase "BTS standard" you use above - I don't think this is a standard. Like, it's not whether you have something beautiful or not. That's not the measuring stick. The measure is how successful you are at achieving beauty. But as far as the sublime goes, you either try or you don't. Games don't have to try (but they are free to, and sometimes succeed). Art does need to try.

    I'm not talking about good art when I say that art is about the sublime. Broadly speaking, a lot of bad art that I've seen is bad precisely because it tries to be amazing and beautiful and doesn't get there because the creator has awful taste or just isn't talented enough. But it does try to do that.

    Reply »
  • KyleOrland

    10/1/2009 4:12:19 PM

    @RyanKuo:

    But even if a lot of games aren't fun, you'd never make a statement as broad and sweeping as "games aren't fun," right?

    Or headline an article with it?

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  • KyleOrland

    10/1/2009 4:08:18 PM

    @RyanKuo:

    "We all have this deeply held bias that 'art' is about Great Things. I do think that, but I think you aren't copping to how much you think so, too. Art may just be "any creative endeavor," so why is it an automatic value judgment to say that something isn't art?"

    It's usually (but not automatically) a value judgment BECAUSE most people put the "Great Things" connotation on art. Even if I don't personally define art that way, I recognize that most people do, and that when most people say "games are not art" they are utilizing this deeply held bias to make a value judgment. I can recognize this without agreeing with it.

    I don't think David is condemning games for being not-art... his piece does seem to argue that unartfulness is one of gaming's best qualities. But the statement "games are not art" -- not "most games art not art," not "games shouldn't be art" -- is so broad that it becomes a value judgement, because it strongly implies that games are not even _capable_ of achieving the BTS standard that's generally agreed upon. I strongly disagree with this implication.

    This is what I mean when I say the "games as art" debate always gets caught up in vagaries of the meaning of art. I see your point when you argue "love is a special kind of affection" as "art is a special kind of creative expression." I just think when we use the word "art" in that way -- as a divider between a good/bad dichotomy -- it brings along these biases and value judgements that are entirely too subjective and harmful to the debate.

    Also, defining everything creative as art does not mean you can't distinguish between good art and bad art. In an earlier comment I even said that distinguishing good art from bad art was the more interesting question.

    I guess my real problem is the word "art" has come, by connotation, to mean only "good art" in most people's minds. I'm just trying to take the word back for the egalitarians, but I realize it's probably a losing battle

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  • RyanKuo

    10/1/2009 4:03:42 PM

    James pointed out to me earlier - a lot of videogames feel like work before you even get into whether they are art or not. I'm thinking of item management in RPGs, for one. I think that un-fun element was there long before the art debate arrived.

    Reply »
  • infinitysend
    infinitysend

    10/1/2009 3:54:33 PM

    I registered to tell you something, David.
    Fun =/=(not equal to) Entertainment.
    Not all games are fun.
    But all games are entertainment.

    Fun is when you enjoy/have good feelings toward the entertainment that you were interacting with.

    Not all games bring about good feelings. Therefore not all games are created for the purpose of being fun.


    What you might find fun, might be something I don't find fun at all. Moreover, people don't always make games to be fun. Some games are purposefully UN-fun. So it's best to avoid using the word "fun" completely.

    Many confuse the fun/entertaining a lot, so I'm not surprised you have as well.

    Reply »
  • w1ndst0rm

    10/1/2009 3:53:26 PM

    @RyanKuo: "but it's better left unsaid"

    You sir, are definitely NOT married.

    Reply »
  • RyanKuo

    10/1/2009 3:46:06 PM

    This is one analogy. Say I'm married and love my wife. I have an idea of what love is, and I can put it into words, but it's better left unsaid.

    You say, "love is any kind of affection." That means you don't know what it means for me to love my wife. You're basically denying the existence of any special feeling between me and my wife that makes it "love" and not just "any kind of affection."

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  • RyanKuo

    10/1/2009 3:36:49 PM

    @KyleOrland:

    "But using this fact to condemn the entire medium as "not art" is a bit silly."

    I don't think David is condemning games for being not-art. I think he's defending games from art. Games can exist in parallel with art.

    But you see how easy it was to read that into the article? We all have this deeply held bias that "art" is about Great Things. I do think that, but I think you aren't copping to how much you think so, too. Art may just be "any creative endeavor," so why is it an automatic value judgment to say that something isn't art?

    As far as why that is constrictive. If anything "creative" is held to be art, then that diminishes the intrinsic worth of what I consider art. In other words, I have something particular in mind when I think of art. It isn't a kind of thing but a value system attached to a thing. It's that objects of art need to strive for a beauty akin to what we find when we contemplate the natural world and the human experience. If you tell me instead that "everything creative is automatically art," that's like saying that there is no difference between a sublime experience and a more casually inventive or subjective one. It's basically implying that my experience of great art doesn't exist.

    As for the Mona Lisa comment, it was on a much more basic level of critique. The literary analogy you bring up would be "what was Leonardo thinking or going through when he made this?" Mine is just a basic postulate that Leonardo was trying to make a beautiful painting. We wouldn't find so much meaning in it if it weren't beautiful. It wouldn't be beautiful if he weren't trying.

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  • svladcjelli
    svladcjelli

    10/1/2009 3:24:52 PM

    Nice attempt at a troll to try to get me to read your crappy article. I didn't.

    Reply »
  • KyleOrland

    10/1/2009 3:22:51 PM

    @RyanKuo:

    "We can see these qualities in it. But these qualities are there to be seen in the painting because the creator was striving for an ideal."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intentional_fallacy

    I think the real problem for calling games art under the BTS definition is that, despite counterexamples like Flower, art in games hasn't reached a critical mass as it has in other media. There are so many beautiful, truthful, sublime paintings out there that no one questions that painting is art, even though there are PLENTY of paintings out there that don't even come close to meeting (or even striving for) the BTS ideal. Despite the existence of such awful, meaningless paintings, no one says "painting isn't art!" And why would they, when paintings artfulness (by the BTS definition) has been proven time and again?

    Here's the issue: When you try to describe an entire medium as "art" or "not art" under the BTS definition, you're not evaluating _every_ creation in the entire medium for beauty, truth and sublimeness (sublimity?). The real question you're addressing is "Can this medium be used to create art." Unfortunately, the question that David seems to be answering instead is really "Are _most_ games art?"

    For his definition of art, no, they most certainly aren't. The vast majority are just "fun" with no pretentions to BTS (something David applauds, and I'd agree for the most part). But using this fact to condemn the entire medium as "not art" is a bit silly. Even one accepted example of art (by whatever definition) in games should be enough to settle the question of whether games can be (and therefore _are_) an artistic medium, in the affirmative.

    I guess my question to you is this: How many Flowers does gaming need before games become "art" under your definition?

    Also, Ryan, I'm not sure how defining art as "any creative endeavor" is in any way constrictive. What do you mean by that?

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  • RyanKuo

    10/1/2009 2:30:57 PM

    @KyleOrland:

    The Mona Lisa would not be the Mona Lisa if the creator hadn't aspired to create something beautiful and sublime. It goes both ways. We can see these qualities in it. But these qualities are there to be seen in the painting because the creator was striving for an ideal.

    I don't think this is an argument about whether games are able to be art. The idea is that the concept of a "game" is categorically different from the concept of "art." Our basic conception of art is that it creates an amazing (BTS) experience. You can't really argue with that, right? This isn't David's personal definition so much as one that is so deeply engrained and widely accepted that we don't even think to question it. And that, the argument goes, is a specific definition even though it seems very obvious. Meanwhile, a game doesn't have to be amazing. It just has to be entertaining.

    (Side point: If we're talking about people imposing their definitions of art on each other - the idea that "art can be anything we want it to be," that "we can't settle on a definition of art," is another discrete idea about art that is at odds with the one about sublimity. It is just as constrictive.)

    Personally I wonder if defining games as things concerned with "pure play" isn't equally constrictive as defining them in terms of art. It's like saying documentary films should stick to the facts, or that music shouldn't try to address matters of the natural world because it is immaterial. Chess isn't all that fun.

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  • KyleOrland

    10/1/2009 1:22:37 PM

    @DavidThomas:

    When everything creative is art (as in my definition), the critical question becomes what makes something "good art" or "bad art." This is much more interesting, to me, than separating out some things as "art" because they're sufficiently concerned with "beauty, truth and the sublime" (BTS) and some things as "not art" because... why? They're not beautiful enough? Not "sublime" enough? Because they're just pure fantasy, like pretending to be Batman, and not "true" enough? It sounds to me like you're just subjectively separating out "good art" as "art" and "bad art" as "not art" with your definition anyway.

    It also seems to me as if you found some hint of the sublime in Scribblenauts and its trillions of possibilities, but you refuse to call it "art" because your conception of what art is is too narrow (as I argued before). I'd contend that a lot of things that are considered art (by your definition) aren't in and of themselves necessarily overly concerned with "beauty, truth and the sublime," but that it's the critical eye -- our perception and appreciation of the work -- that brings out their beauty and meaning. The Mona Lisa is just a portrait of a smiling girl. It as the critic that asked "Why is she smiling?" that helped make it "fine art."

    Again, this is primarily an unwinnable semantic and philosophical argument about the meaning of art. But even by your definition, I think you're being too sweeping in proclaiming games as "not art." You acknowledge that a game like Flower is sufficiently concerned with BTS to meet your definition of art. Does that mean the game can't be any fun? Are the two really mutually exclusive? And if Flower can do it, why the blanket "Games are not art" headline? Wouldn't it be more accurate to say "Games are capable of being art, but most aren't (and that's OK, because they're still fun and that's what we should be focused on)?"

    Not as catchy as a headline, but still...

    Reply »
  • Ballistic
    Ballistic

    10/1/2009 1:19:05 PM

    most video games are art in the sense that they are the sum parts of many arts. Art evolves as we devlop more tools to express oneself. it started with cave drawing pictures on a wall. next came storytelling and music. Then plays where people acted out stories. Then photo to capture area so people have an image to better describe a story. then moving pictures without sound. then moving pictures with sound.

    Games are moving pictures play with music sound and storytelling with you living the part. Is it not too much different then imagine the world of tolkien while reading lord of the rings. Cutting a game apart into base pieces. you have what people describe as art. is the halo opening score not magical? is the twist in Kotor not great? Are the drawing style of Okami not beautiful?
    how can you say something that is made entirely of arts not at least capable of being art?

    Fun isn't a mutual exclusivity. Why would people read those best seller books plays music or painting if it was not in some way fun, entertaining, or engaging.

    the next question is has it reached that point that games=art. In my opinion not yet however the point is that it will. The same way that a picture on wall came to be a photograph that became to movie. so too will the idea of games = art

    Reply »
  • w1ndst0rm

    10/1/2009 12:29:09 PM

    @DavidThomas:, I want you to write something on your definition of 'fun' next.


    Does the entire Crispy group, of writers, consider all writing art or just "literature?" I guess I am looking for a bias. When you write a tight commentary with subtext and craft about a game is that a piece of art or artful?

    Reply »
  • RyanKuo

    10/1/2009 11:46:14 AM

    "The downside of this is that we try to turn things that are not art into art we end up destroying or consuming them."

    Aren't most of the arts evolutions of things that weren't art? This is the point I've been trying to make, I am finally realizing.

    Games trying to be art just reflects a basic human impulse.

    Reply »
  • DavidThomas

    10/1/2009 10:30:47 AM

    @KyleOrland:

    Oh Kyle, you reductionist smart alec.

    Sure. That's right.

    But what this argument comes down to, is really why I (respectfully) diagree with @CG-Prophet.

    I think this conception of art as something that moves you is pretty standard. The problem is, this is the "art is everything" argument. A sunset moves me. Looking at the Mona Lisa moves me. Watching Scooby Doo moves. On so on.

    The trouble is, if art is everything, then why do we need this idea of art (we already have a word for everything, it's "everything").

    So, I diagnose this issue in the article and in these comments as: art is not everything. It must be something else. I suggest that we really never left the Kantian conception. In this view, art is concerned with beauty, truth and the sublime.

    The downside of this is that we try to turn things that are not art into art we end up destroying or consuming them. When it comes to games, I question whether this is a globally good idea. Sure, Flower manages to do it. But most games don't need to and probably shouldn't, as the argument goes.

    Or, as Kyle puts it, the Batman dance is fun as long as you are pretending to be Batman. Except, ooops. Batman doesn't dance. See how how art mucks up the fun?

    Reply »
  • KyleOrland

    9/30/2009 8:59:45 PM

    @DavidThomas:

    Or maybe if my playful Batman dance is sufficiently "concerned with truth and beauty" then it suddenly stops being "fun" and becomes "art."

    Is that it?

    Reply »
  • KyleOrland

    9/30/2009 8:57:06 PM

    @DavidThomas:

    Let me see if I have this straight:

    When you watch someone dance, you are watching "art."

    But if _you_ are the one doing the dancing, and you're pretending to be Batman (or some prancier super-hero, say) as you dance, and you're having fun doing it, then it's no longer "art" but simply "fun."

    Do I have that right?

    Reply »
  • RyanKuo

    9/30/2009 8:37:39 PM

    Okay. For one, there is a strong element of play in the double acts of creation and inspiration. Some would argue that it's the most important.

    There are also elements of play in art. Dancing to music, laughing at or being thrilled by a film, having vicarious pleasure in a photograph, reading and re-reading a poem out loud.

    But these are experiences that, in great works of art, are used in service of "being overwhelmed," as David says, by their reality. (I was going to point out that all works of art are also a lie, but that doesn't seem to be how the word "lie" is being used here.)

    Then there are those examples of music or painting or poetry that "aren't art." Peasant dances, portraits, simple rhymes. These weren't overtly about truth or meaning, they were about escape or (to one extreme) abandon. They're made the same way, and enjoyed the same way, as art. But they don't carry that seriousness, never did, until people decided they sometimes should.

    In the same way, there's a real distinction to be drawn between Scribblenauts and Far Cry 2. But can't we see these as part of a similar continuum and not as something true, on the one hand, and a failing of the medium on the other?

    I guess I wouldn't mind some seriousness mixed in with my fun? Should games be like a recreational drug?

    Reply »
  • RyanKuo

    9/30/2009 8:05:28 PM

    Hmmmm. David's argument is pretty watertight.

    *looks for a long sharp stick*

    Reply »
  • CG-Prophet

    9/30/2009 7:55:01 PM

    David, I'm not going to throw a wall of text at you. Games can be art just like a movie, or music, or literature. For me it's about the sum of a game's parts coming together to generate a strong emotional response or even a moment.

    Reply »
  • DavidThomas

    9/30/2009 6:40:21 PM

    @RyanKuo:

    Well, I was never any good at punk (although my old leather jacket will tell you I tried).

    So, while I am probably being more obstinate than I have admitted, no, I mean what I say: Games are not art.

    Otherwise, I agree with your assessment.

    The nut of this argument is:

    Art, no matter what you think of it otherwise, is concerned with truth and beauty and that truth and the beauty is inherit to the art object or concept.

    Games, no matter you think about them otherwise, are about fun. And that fun is a liberation from truth and meaning, at least for the moment of play.

    To go back to a point @KyleBaron makes: You don't play Arkham Asylum to experience truth or beauty. No, you play the game to pretend you are Batman. Everything in the game should serve this playful lie.

    Compare that to the Dark Knight movie (or comic, fine with me). You are not mean to pretend you are Batman. You are supposed to leave your body and become overwhelmed by the art. In that sense, for the duration of the film, you are supposed to feel like it's real.

    When games feel real, they stop being fun. They turn into jobs or simulations.

    At the bottom of this is the remarkably annoying confusion we have by saying: We can't define art/But games are art!

    No. Games are not art. Music is art. Dance is art. Photography is art. Painting is art.

    Games that use music and photography and images and architecture and the dance of thumbs across the joystick are not art. They just appropriate art materials to create this fun stuff.

    Or they should. Like Scribblenauts. Not like Far Cry 2, which tried too hard to have a point and be dramatic and be meaningful and wasn't enough fun.

    Reply »
  • RyanKuo

    9/30/2009 5:58:59 PM

    @KyleOrland:

    I get what you're saying, but I think saying that 'the meaning of art is widely debated and thus subjective' actually gives too much credit to the debates about the meaning of art.

    There has always been art in human culture. We all know what it is. Really, we do. It's just that its role is so downplayed in your average hyperindustrialized society that we have to think hard about how to justify it.

    But the concept of art is a given, just like love is. I know this sounds like a romantic view, but I feel I'm just being realistic.

    I think David is taking issue with people like me who may sometimes overuse academic or philosophical arguments about art and inadvertently constrict what games can be. So I think he's being somewhat polemical when he says that Games Are Not Art. Like in a punk way. No?

    Reply »
  • KyleOrland

    9/30/2009 5:49:34 PM

    One last thing then I'm really done for now:

    From http://www.brooklynrail.org/2009/09/artseen/the-importance-of-being-unimportant

    "“Art” can be unimportant and still allow for the experience of a work of art to be life-changing. I value the memories I have of listening to baseball games on my grandparents’ porch, but Baseball, as a concept, remains entirely unimportant. Such concepts as baseball, art, and Hickey’s example of rock and roll, are wholly unimportant except for the experiences they foster and the history to which they contribute."

    By this definition, I'd say Scribblenauts, by dint of your experience with it, definitely is art, even if it's "unimportant" and not worthy of a museum.

    Reply »
  • KyleOrland

    9/30/2009 5:44:45 PM

    [Continuing from last post]

    I'm not trying to convince you that my definition of "art" is superior, just that everyone has a different idea of what "art" is. Hence, discussions of "are games art" usually end up talking past each other. "I say art is this and games are art." "Well I say art is this other thing so games are not art." It's an almost entirely semantic argument that ends up rather pointless.

    Yes, there is some debate on the edge cases about what makes something a "game" but for the most part the idea of "game" is much better settled than the idea of "art." Personally, I come across the "is it art" debate a LOT more than I come across the "Is it a game" debate.

    In short: "Are we all completely insane? Is this ART thing a great illusion?"

    Yes and yes.

    Reply »
  • KyleOrland

    9/30/2009 3:50:48 PM

    @DavidThomas:

    "If you want, you are welcome to propose a definition of art that includes games. I just think that you'll find you wreck the notion of art in the process."

    I may wreck YOUR notion of art in the process, but rest assured MY notion of art works perfectly well for me and does indeed include games. My working definition (adapted from Scott McCloud's Understanding Comics, IIRC) defines art as "any form of creative expression that is not directly related to survival." So a video game (and its creation) is art while eating a steak sandwich is not (unless you add a superfluous artistic flourish to your chewing, I suppose).

    I realize my idea of "art" is broader than most, but that's just the problem. Art is an INCREDIBLY loaded term. Just because we have things called "art museums" and "artists" doesn't mean everyone agrees that what is in/produced by them is art, or that things outside them/produced by others are NOT art. I find the "in a museum" part of your definition incredibly narrow, in fact. Are you saying that, until some museum director recognizes a work and adds it to a public collection, it's not art? Are you saying that if a museum doesn't exist for an art form it shouldn't be considered an art form?

    I think the real problem here is that you (and most people, I think) conflate the ideas of "art" and "fine art" (i.e. what gets put in museums). The word "art" ends up getting muddied and used as a shorthand simply for creative works that are "good" or "worthy." Hence, being "art" is just some amorphous thing to strive for and argue for even if it's incredibly ill-defined.

    I'm not trying to convince you that my definition of "art" is superior, just that everyone has a different idea of what "art" is. Hence, discussions of "are games art" usually end up talking past each other. "I say art is this and games are art." "Well I say art is this other thing so games are not art." It's an almost entirely semantic argument that ends up rather point

    Reply »
  • RyanKuo

    9/30/2009 3:38:38 PM

    I do think that everything should aspire to art.

    By that I don't mean that everything should attempt to scale the heights of the sublime. But I think there are inherent aesthetics in games, because - as KyleBaron said - they are crafted things. And there is an inherent ethics in aesthetic choice, and if I were presented with a yes/no question I would say "yes, these aesthetics should be good."

    I feel weird about the binary you draw between art and fun. We agree that "pure play" is the point of Scribblenauts. But you seem to be arguing that Scribblenauts' incredible fun is ultimately a result of its math, and the systems that are in place. Right? These systems allow for amazing possibilities when the player enters the equation.

    But isn't the game fun, in part, because of the way that it looks and feels for you to experience these things making a mess (one that makes sense, ie, has some meaning)? The numbers are impressive, yes. But why does it add up to more fun than Cent mille milliards...? It's not just because its numbers are exponentially bigger. It's because it doesn't just look like, say, a text adventure. If you want to put a cow in a fire, you literally take a cow and toss it in the fire, and maybe throw in a wheelbarrow for good measure. There is form there, and it has an effect, and even if the concept of "cow in fire" is as important as the manifestation thereof, it's only half.

    For me, it's not that games are art because I want them to be in a museum. (How would you play them?) They may be different because of fun. But people used to play music out loud for fun. And read poetry, for fun. And take photographs for fun. And while we can apply Kant and Adorno to draw the same lines between art and not-art in each case; broadly speaking, we as a society take for granted that they are "artforms." Games don't need to self-consciously aspire to art (I agree that this can work against them) to simply be taken in that way. It's just a matter of time.

    Reply »
  • KyleBaron
    KyleBaron

    9/30/2009 1:59:25 PM

    The question I'm responding to your article with is, is game development an art? If so, does that make a well crafted game a piece of art, not necessarily in the Ebert-approved sense?

    On a side note, I don't see the value in using critics like Ebert as judges of something's artistic value. I feel that art is subjective almost by definition, and that anything created by another person that has a significant impact on the way a different person feels has artistic value, and is therefore art.

    To elaborate, one might fairly view Batman: Arkham Asylum as a toy, and they'd be right. They'd also be just as correct as another who, after playing through Arkham Asylum, was inspired by the portrayal of Batman as an extreme personification of "good" moral choice and dedication to a worthwhile cause.

    Sure, with the definition of art that I've given, the kneejerk reaction may be "well fine, I guess everything's art!" If something created by a person I've never met can evoke deep emotions in me, a "video game" though it may be, then I feel that my description of it shouldn't be limited to that of a piece of titillating novocaine.

    Reply »
  • DavidThomas

    9/30/2009 1:54:14 PM

    @CG-Prophet:

    Glutton for punishment? I am a glutton for truth! :)

    But, to the point: I know this is an unpopular argument to make. And honestly, I used to be on the "games are art" band wagon. Overtime, it just became clear this was an aspiration we have for games, not something that made sense. Even worse, I do think the desire for games to be art will lead to their doom.

    A couple of caveats in the interest of clarity:

    * Games can be used to make art in the sense that artists have appropriated everything from urinals to elephant dung to make art. That does not mean, therefore, that poop and porcelain are inherently art.

    * Games are expressive. But that does not make them art. Lots of things are expressive that are not art--like wearing a wig or yelling at your neighbor.

    But onto the more important point, and @KyleOrland you'll want in on this:

    Saying that this discussion comes down to the unanswerable question "What is art?" strikes me as sort of silly. Of course we can define art! We do it all the time. We have ART museums, we have people who call themselves ARTists, we teach ART class and we buy and frame ART and hang it on our walls.

    Are we all completely insane? Is this ART thing a great illusion.

    Of course not.

    Sure, the definition of art is under contention and has fuzzy edges. So do lots of things that we understand but don't get hung up on like: love, truth and games.

    So you guys don't get off that easy. If you want, you are welcome to propose a definition of art that includes games. I just think that you'll find you wreck the notion of art in the process.

    Now there are some more contemporary notions of aesthetics that probably include games. And as a result, might want to claim them as art. My contention here is that when people say games are art or that they are aesthetic, they are appealing to the Kantian notion of art and aesthetics that I outlined in the article--the beautiful and the sublime. But games only need to be fun.

    Reply »
  • KyleOrland

    9/30/2009 12:35:42 PM

    "our basic notion of art holds that a) you experience something, b) it makes you go "wow," and then c) someone puts it in an art museum."

    I couldn't disagree more, but I'm not going to bother fully explaining why. The "Are Games Art" debate always seems to come down to "What is Art?" and that's a question that is a) incredibly subjective b) hasn't been settled despite hundreds of years of debate and c) almost totally uninteresting to me.

    That said, I do appreciate your trying to treat games as play experiences rather than purely narrative or aesthetic ones.

    Reply »
  • CG-Prophet

    9/30/2009 12:04:19 PM

    Dave do you know what the term "glutton for punishment" means? Well, i'll jump into this with both feet. What the heck?

    Let me just say I disagree that games are not art. Most games are not art, but some are, just like movies are art.

    But it isn't through sight or sound that games are art to me - it's the experience I get from playing.

    Norman Rockwell’s work is a good example; it reminds people of simpler times when people were allegedly good neighbors treating each other with kindness. Of course that isn’t true at all, but that’s how people feel about his work when they look at an old Saturday Evening Post cover.

    It's hard to argue that something isn't art when we can't even clearly define what art is.

    Reply »

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